Mini Balance Patch

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[tank130]

*ninja  by tank*
I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not, but if not...
You're an idiot.

so... I guess you thought it was important to make this personal....so go fuck yourself idiot!!!!!

You are comparing a one on one fight. L2P. Just because you have troubles countering it with one unit, does not make it OP. Counter it with combined arms.

As PE; Tread breaker. Kill with marder or 50mm
As Wher, use p4 to take turret priority, hit with 2 paks. Or 1 panther takes it out. Or how about 2 P4...

You can not kill an axis tank with one unit, why would you think you should be able to kill an allied tank with one unit.

[Masacree]

As Wher, use p4 to take turret priority, hit with 2 paks.

Okay, let's take your recommendation. First of all, this is in complete contradiction with your previous statement :

It can be beat by any axis tank....so L2P

Obviously, you were wrong on that point, and are now trying to "move the goal posts" to salvage your position. But I'll take your example at face value:

1 p4 and 2 paks is 20 pop. That's 50% of your popcap at maximum popcap. But ignoring the obvious pop cap discrepancy,

400 mp and 260 fu (p4) 760 mp 240 mu (2x paks) = 1160 mp 260 fu and 240 mu (more if you assume the p4 has upgrades) to counter

430 MP, 320 F

If that doesn't fit the definition of overpowered, then I don't know what is.

The real problem is you're trying to portray the churchill croc as a heavy tank ("it takes combined arms to beat a tiger, therefore it should take combined arms to kill a croc") but its NOT PRICED like a heavy tank.

[CrazyWR]

Masacree...you can't counter ANY tank with 1 piece of AT effectively.  So obviously every tank is OP if you go by total price...

[Masacree]

Masacree...you can't counter ANY tank with 1 piece of AT effectively.  So obviously every tank is OP if you go by total price...

P4's don't take a sherman and 2 57's to kill.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Sure, 2 pieces of AT is required to counter tanks efficiently, but that 2 pieces of AT is pop and cost effective, unlike the amount of AT required to kill a croc.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Masacree...you can't counter ANY tank with 1 piece of AT effectively.  So obviously every tank is OP if you go by total price...

P4's don't take a sherman and 2 57's to kill.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Sure, 2 pieces of AT is required to counter tanks efficiently, but that 2 pieces of AT is pop and cost effective, unlike the amount of AT required to kill a croc.

 And p4's are doctrine specific?

 -Wind

[lionel23]

Or just use the P4.... why add the Paks?  We're talking about just killing it efficiently now.

A single P4 can counter the 'dreaded' Flame Church Croc.  Now you're adding superfluous extras (well what about 3 storm shrek squads and a P4! See! Look how OP the church is cause I need a tank and those 3 fully upgraded squads to fight it!) to the combination.

It's like saying the Sherman is overpowered because it can fight tons of Volks worth of units with fausts and look! ALl the MU and MP I invested lost to a Sherman!  Cost is not the only thing that determines what is balanced or not.  If thats so, then 2 of my ranger squads, in price alone, should always beat a P4 if we do a price comparison war.  It's also the skill of the user that matters and the situation you're in.  Example - Don't use engineers with flamers and riflemen with BARs only to fight puma or AC spam.  It's that simple.  Threadbreak the Church, use mines, a single tank to deter it, tank traps to slow it down, spread infantry out and flank it (flamer has AOE splash), don't sit in buildings and cover and expect to win, spread out ATGs or an 88.... have an ally bring a single heavy tank (and really, which axis army doesn't have a heavy tank or panther in it? Or mass P4s/Stugs), shrek ambush it, faust critical its engine, puma rush it from behind... not sure what else I can tell you when you have a plethora of options avail to counter the church.  It's expensive and slow and only good against infantry, just a glorified heavy halftrack or stag... its not meant to stop tanks, just infantry.

[Killer344]

Warnings sent.

[Mysthalin]

Everyone, just chill out a bit. If the churchil crocodile does become useless with the latest balance patch, do you really believe the developers will leave it at this price? We're not Ucross - we don't change things out of a sheer whim. Look at how the unit works at the current price, and then bring up the issue if you think there is one.

Now, I'm probably the most notorious crocspammer currently running loose. Many have seen the impressive 29-5-2 W/L/D ratio. David had a 12-1 W/L ratio, and that 1 loss he got when he spammed 7 bofors. He was also using churchil crocodiles.

My point is that the churchil crocodile was indeed overpowered as soon as it was implemented, and even as a user of the dreaded tank - I have to say it was overpowered. It required micro, and it required specific tactics in it's usage(being a very combined-arms tank) to be successful with it. But albeit all that - it was still too powerful for what it cost.

Have in mind that 430 MP 320 FU is just BARELY more than a Panzer IV. 25 percent more fuel than a panzer 4 for 50 percent more health, and 40 percent better armor, on top of an absolutely AWESOME flamethrower is pretty damn worth it - at least in my opinion. Sure, it's slower, but that's not really a problem considering you want to have AT guns and infantry pushing up right behind it.

So, all in all - I support the change, at least for now. If the change is bad, we'll all see it, and it'll be changed back. If the change is not enough, it will get more nerfing.

[shockcoil]

Nuh uh churchill crocs are UP and need to be buffed. I suggest upping their speed to 5. On a similar note Hetzers need serious buffing too. I suggest a price revert and an increase in health to match its churchill counterpart. Also it should have a turret with a flamethrower attached and secondary option to upgrade shreks firing from the sides

[fallensoldier7]

Lol churchill counterpart.

[Unkn0wn]

To be honest the churchill croc fuel increase is just a stopgap for the tournament, they will be reviewed afterwards. In the long run we intend on the Churchill Croc to get 13 pop, from 12 (With the F going back to 300)

[Demon767]

if the Pak38 is attacked head-on and not flanked, the flamethrower rarely toasts the crew. Observe it next time. A churchill croc can sit there burning a pak38 from the front and the crew just will not get roasted. Often the pak38 is blown up by the 6 pounder instead of the crew being roasted.

You are so blind your info is incorrect!

[Mysthalin]

In fact, misten is correct demon...

[Sach]

I love how much drama 20 fuel can make.

[Baine]

Just like in real life!

[CafeMilani]

To be honest the churchill croc fuel increase is just a stopgap for the tournament, they will be reviewed afterwards. In the long run we intend on the Churchill Croc to get 13 pop, from 12 (With the F going back to 300)

thats why it was needed.

3 instead of 4 in the tourney companies.

[tank130]

To be honest the churchill croc fuel increase is just a stopgap for the tournament, they will be reviewed afterwards. In the long run we intend on the Churchill Croc to get 13 pop, from 12 (With the F going back to 300)

I am a little confused by this comment. Why would we adjust a unit that affects everybody ( in tournament or not ) only to revert it afterward? If the unit is not balanced.... then it is not balanced. I disagree that it is imbalanced, but that is irrelevant really.
Isn't all game play really the same as game play in the tournament? Especially when everybody has to play all factions in the tournament?

[Unkn0wn]

Well, it's supposed to go up to 13 pop (from 12) but due to our development resources being spread thin that's going to have to wait a bit. An alternative proposed nerf was increasing its fuel marginally, and that is what we have done for the time being. I didn't phrase it correctly though, when it goes up to 13 pop we will review the unit's price and at that point a fuel decrease MAY happen again. I was wrong in saying that it WILL happen, that was my mistake and I apologise

I really wanted to release this patch right before the tournament because it addressee some minor imbalances and will affect the metagame slightly.

[Masacree]

Or just use the P4.... why add the Paks?  We're talking about just killing it efficiently now.

A single P4 can counter the 'dreaded' Flame Church Croc.  

Lionel, if you would actually read any of the other posts in the thread, we already determined that a churchill croc will beat a p4.

Masacree...you can't counter ANY tank with 1 piece of AT effectively.  So obviously every tank is OP if you go by total price...

P4's don't take a sherman and 2 57's to kill.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Sure, 2 pieces of AT is required to counter tanks efficiently, but that 2 pieces of AT is pop and cost effective, unlike the amount of AT required to kill a croc.

 And p4's are doctrine specific?

 -Wind

What does that matter?

[Smokaz]

Good call on the churchill and hetzer.  The croc barely takes any micro, it just frontally assaults its counters and wins. No other tank can charge at guns + handheld AT with similar ease to the croc churchill and get away with it cost-effectively. It also has some very handy modifiers against PE marders for instance that boosts it when in range of them. At first I thought the churchill spam with british combined arms were just good play, then I made a british account to check it out for a few games and it was just lolworthy how amazing it was at burning infantry and assaulting paks.  Pretty much everything other than a Panther sucks against a croc, and the panther doesnt have a big ass flamethrower.