0.7.6 Patch Notes

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[lionel23]

I'll post all my replays then Mys, because there are MANY times stickies don't do any damage (like a blank hit) that me and Jodo/May/velocity have seen when we play, so there are times where it DOESN'T PENETRATE or whateve rolls needs to be rolled to get that result, and hence why stickies were put on tank reapers to increase their penetration, because stickies obviously aren't a damage dealing device like fausts and they have relatively perfect accuracy.  If that wasn't so, then why are sticky bombs buffed by Tank Reapers then?

[TheArea]

I gotta agree with Groundfire on this one, outright stun removal without so much a as a discussion (maybe among devs on their own, but that seems very narrow compared to how other changes have been taken up here on the forums) seems reactive and short sighted to say the least.

In this respect, Crazy's comment makes sense.  Im sure Blitz players would be upset if from one day to the next stormtroopers couldnt cloak anymore.  If its intended as a balance change just dont see why this wasnt done much earlier, we went an entire war with stun, but now its a problem?  Its not just a nerf bat to the T17, but a nerf bat to the whole armor doc.

[Mysthalin]

I'll post all my replays then Mys, because there are MANY times stickies don't do any damage (like a blank hit) that me and Jodo/May/velocity have seen when we play, so there are times where it DOESN'T PENETRATE or whatever rolls needs to be rolled to get that result, and hence why stickies were put on tank reapers to increase their penetration, because stickies obviously aren't a damage dealing device like fausts and they have relatively perfect accuracy.  If that wasn't so, then why are sticky bombs buffed by Tank Reapers then?

Stickies were put on tank reapers to increase their damage and accuracy. Penetration is just a null argument : I just checked the area damage tables, and it turns out the sticky has a FURTHER 2x penetration modifier at short-medium splash range, which is 3/4 respectively. For comparison, a Puma 50mms entire splash radius is 1.75
There is no way the sticky won't penetrate - not even vet 3 german steel KTs(was wrong on that, I guess).
Damage - the sticky deals 100-150 damage base, with only a 0.5 modifier against all skirted tanks.  That is in fact more damage than the faust(at 100-125 base damage) against everything that isn't a skirted tank. The tank reapers buff definitely helps the sticky bomb.
It also does not have perfect accuracy - I've seen it miss moving pumas and bikes, which ends up with the sticky flying wildly out of the map. Looks fairly funny, somewhat like when a tank shell misses a target, then curves up into the air and drops down in where the target was a few seconds ago, leaving a crater.

@Area : well, they've also kept the staghound MG for an entire war, as it was. The simple fact is that the units were given a chance to show they are applicable in the current enviroment without being overpowered, and they have both shown that they are, in fact, too powerful. Balance isn't done from the get-go, and more information was needed on how the unit would fare before anything would be done about it. Of course nerfing the T17 is nerfing the armor doctrine - just like nerfing the MG42 would be nerfing Wehrmacht, or, to a more realistic scenario : nerfing the staghound MG is nerfing the British faction. It's what nerfing does - it dilutes the power of the faction/doctrine using the unit.

[Smokaz]

I dont see the problem really. T17s will still be the masters of raping unsupported infantry in the skirts of the map. You'll just sometimes have to send in something heavier to support it against AT. And it won't so easily be able to rape the upgun puma.

And the stag mg was priced like it was a regular mg with just a little bit of candy on top, when it actually was the candy factory. Pricing was impossible to do so the unit was changed.

[Baine]

The stag still is darn good vs infantry and he only lost an ability that made him very effective vs vehicles, or more so let him disable any vehicle trying to interfere. Learn to drive away.

[nugnugx]

And you say t17 is op




it went up to 46 but i didn't make pic cuz it died



does it mean ostwind should be nerfed? no , it means t17 op is just paranoia

[CrazyWR]

you don't see the problem smokaz?  REALLY?  Infantry gets silly range stickies plus buffs to rifles if you choose to go a different route meaning more vet2 rifles easily which means extra range stickies that way in addition to the possibility of ranger support.  Airborne...is AB.  Armor gets...what?  AP rounds is a t4, which is awesome, sure, but forcing people in that direction to have the ability to kill tanks reliably as armor is silly.  It was already necessary to ATG spam when playing as armor doc due to the lack of handheld AT(no buffs to rifles make them highly unreliable, even with zooks, ask Two).  Removing t17 stun makes the unlock a bit useless, I'd rather have an m8 if you take off stun tbh.  Armor get no anti-vehicle buffs til they reach AP rounds, have inferior tanks to Axis, already get carved up by PE AT.  T17 stun was the method used as a deterrent to axis tanks to allow allied tanks to do their job killing infantry or to work in conjunction with tank destroyers to give them a fighting chance vs heavier axis tanks.   Removing this means one American doctrine now lacks what the other 5 allied doctrines have.  Congratulations.

[Baine]

Post the replay, then we can talk.


And no, posting a screen of an Ostwin with so many infantry kills doesn't make anyone think its op, because people know its slow and doesn't take a beating.

[TheArea]

Yeh Myst but balance, as I’ve been told before, in a dynamic environment with multiple units, docs, and resources is more complex than just eliminating an entire ability outright, without changing anything else.  

So, to take your analogy with Wher, we can (and some think we should) nerf the wher mortar, but to nerf it with out balancing anything else wouldn’t make sense.  Coming back to the T17 then, what nerfing it does is obliquely buff axis armor (as if it needed it).  Hence, the debate around the T17 has been seesawing between L2P threads and nerf threads.  

In this sense, Smokaz suggestion makes the most sense because its the most even handed because it deals with the root of the problem, which is Whers limited (and I still think this is debatable) ability to deal with light vehicles.  If teller mines do the trick for PE, why shouldn’t Wher have something similar?

My fear is that by nerfing the T17, US armor players lose a large chunk of their AT ability.  Stickys are only really effective on Vet2 squads, otherwise they blow, and since Wher mortar and mortar HTs are extremely effective US ATGs (without cloak) are rendered similarly mediocre.  In essence then, what this nerf effectively does is force US armor to spam armor, or roll another tree.  

And, this is the last point, if this how balance is going to be done, then we definitely have to allow people to re-spend their PPs if they find their doctrine spec nerfed to the point they would rather play another tree, otherwise it turns into a massive waste of time.

[smurfORnot]

people will be able to respend their pp soon,since reset is not that far away...

[Unkn0wn]

Honestly, t17 are still infantry raping machines, I'm an armour player (I grinded my armour account 50+ games and counting) who uses t17s extensively and I don't see what all the fuss is about. Armour was awesome before these shitty TOV units were integrated and it will remain awesome even if those units were to be taken away.

It seems like a lot of people are arguing because of the sheer emotional attachment they had to the ability. I don't feel stun was a essential addition to the doctrine at all.

My fear is that by nerfing the T17, US armor players lose a large chunk of their AT ability

This is simply untrue, armour doc now has bazookas too when they didn't before.

[Baine]

in a dynamic environment with multiple units, docs, and resources is more complex than just eliminating an entire ability outright, without changing anything else.  

So, to take your analogy with Wher, we can (and some think we should) nerf the wher mortar, but to nerf it with out balancing anything else wouldn’t make sense.

What about paks not being able to move while cloak? In the same way, the stun should be an additional unlock.

[Duckordie]

NEW BUGS

Officers at vet 2 dont "Suport" any units exept infantry, and he done not follow then, paks, Nebbels, flak88 wont get suport, great...


Doctrine that gives you 30secs extra time, dose not work

[smurfORnot]

my officer isn't vet 2,but still couldn't supervise 88...didn't check about stuka...

[lionel23]

people will be able to respend their pp soon,since reset is not that far away...

Not far away?  We're going to go a full 6-8 weeks while implementing doctrines, I've spoken to EIRRMOD about this, because wouldn't it suck if you were playing an airborne company, waiting to gain XP and PP to try your doc.. then we implement them and BAM wipe everyone back to zero!  May as well not play this cycle and test your company (which they can't do) if they start late, unless for whatever reason the devs give them free accounts or something, which I highly doubt.

[Smokaz]

you don't see the problem smokaz?  REALLY?  Infantry gets silly range stickies plus buffs to rifles if you choose to go a different route meaning more vet2 rifles easily which means extra range stickies that way in addition to the possibility of ranger support.  Airborne...is AB.  Armor gets...what?  AP rounds is a t4, which is awesome, sure, but forcing people in that direction to have the ability to kill tanks reliably as armor is silly.  It was already necessary to ATG spam when playing as armor doc due to the lack of handheld AT(no buffs to rifles make them highly unreliable, even with zooks, ask Two).  Removing t17 stun makes the unlock a bit useless, I'd rather have an m8 if you take off stun tbh.  Armor get no anti-vehicle buffs til they reach AP rounds, have inferior tanks to Axis, already get carved up by PE AT.  T17 stun was the method used as a deterrent to axis tanks to allow allied tanks to do their job killing infantry or to work in conjunction with tank destroyers to give them a fighting chance vs heavier axis tanks.   Removing this means one American doctrine now lacks what the other 5 allied doctrines have.  Congratulations.

Lets see.

1.  Silly range stickies. Bug that is supposedly fixed, or going to be. Nah, not valid.

2.  Armor has handheld AT now.

3.  Didnt give them a fighting chance, it made them rape heavy tanks. AP round will continue to rape just as well without the t17 stun.

4.  The only thing armor lacks is healing, and airborne gets it fashionably late. Now if Armor didnt have handheld AT OR healing, you might have a point.

5.  57mms are still good as AT. More than good enough to work with a OBM, HE company. Elite runs HE

6. Yes, you'd rather have m8s because they have always been better than t17s at fighting other light armor and tanks. Suddendly you have to make a choice instead of having the best of both worlds, more AT capability on my light vehicle or a pure AI light vehicle? Jesus perhaps you'd see both the m8 and the t17 in the same company now.. what a drag?

[Malgoroth]

in a dynamic environment with multiple units, docs, and resources is more complex than just eliminating an entire ability outright, without changing anything else.  

So, to take your analogy with Wher, we can (and some think we should) nerf the wher mortar, but to nerf it with out balancing anything else wouldn’t make sense.

What about paks not being able to move while cloak? In the same way, the stun should be an additional unlock.

No it shouldn't.
T17 stun is an ability which shouldn't exist, and I for one am fucking ecstatic that it's fucking gone. I hope with all the hope I can possibly hope, that it stays gone for fucking ever. I piss on stun's corpse. It can rot in EIRR hell with raid assault airborne for a fucking eternity.    

[Killer344]

LOL.. so much hate..

[Smokaz]

Fact is you pay 500 fuel for a panther and it can be taken out by two m10s, or two cloaked hellcats can literally neuter it. Its all about micro and knowing how to use the TD's. Armor really isnt in such a bad position just because they lose t17 stun. Perhaps it could come back as a doctrine ability. I dont really mind t17 stun that much but the staghound MG change I support 100% because it was ridiculous for its price.

As for the PE AT the majority of it is vulnerable to bazookas, which armor now can field as many as they want of easily.

[NightRain]

Hellcat Ninja cloak should be removed I thinks.

Drive in pop it in camo shoot, retreat rinse and repeat. It is kinda abusing ability, I think it should stand still for- 5 secs until it can cloak? Pretty much like a PAK once it fires once...something like that