Churchill Crocodile

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[Smokaz]

Its better that the main gun is controllable than the flamethrower as you can more or less  direct the flamethrower through rotation the church.

[Armfelt]

Pls don't sabotage the weapons...

[GrinningD]

Pls don't sabotage the weapons...

+1

[Mysthalin]

Its better that the main gun is controllable than the flamethrower as you can more or less  direct the flamethrower through rotation the church.

You can only direct the flamethrower by rotating - but the darn thing seriously dislikes shooting what you want it to shoot. More often than not it will shoot units in the open and that don't provide an actual threat. You CAN'T control the flamethrower by merely rotating.
Say what you want - but on the crocodile, the flamethrower is the selling point - it's what people buy the croc for. I'd rather be able to control my selling point - the main gun's targetting table is decent enough to shoot the most dangerous units.

[winisez]

The churchhill croc itself is fine. I do have issue with the t2 hulldown, but not because of its buffs. Voluntarily immobilizing your tank is retarded is almost every instance imo, the problem with it is you can pop it on and off willy nilly, give it a small cooldown, like the p4ist/ marder lockdown and that may be enough to fix it.  I can see an argument for 13 pop being too low, changing it to 14 could be done, but id start with fixing the t2 first and seeing where things stand from that point.

[VERTIGGO]

I can see an argument for 13 pop being too low, changing it to 14 could be done, but id start with fixing the t2 first and seeing where things stand from that point.

14 pop sound reasonable, after all it's effective health is greater than a panther's. The only beef I have with it now is the hull-down nonsense. Sure it may be a doc thing, but without any sort of lock-down penalty, it effectively doubles the tank or more. It simply requires so much to counter it, that a few of them can roll almost anything. I bet someone has taken out an 88 1 on 1 with that bit.

[panzerman]

pop increase may all it will need.

i am rather shitty after just playing a game and a churchill croc did the same amount of damage as a tiger in about 1/3 of the time and barely needed to be babied. though with the support of an atg it took down almost anything. inf tanks and paks or just got smoked by it.

and on top of that with 2 other players to contend with it made it very hard. and i feel my teammates where in the same situation never really being able to attack.

[VERTIGGO]

i dont know if it should be nerfed. i mean my usual counter to everything is pak-p4. and your not going to charge a church croc into a pak and a p4. and its all about luck with the flame vs Pak.

We've all seen Paks insta died to the flames, but we've also seen paks just take the flames while putting out shots nearly killing the thing.

so i dunno yet

I disagre; I know my reaction to a single PaK now is to drive straight towards it, pop sandbags and roast it, and that seems like a bright red flag that something's wrong with the balance/counter system. By the time a PaK gets 2-3 shots off its crew will be doing the burning dervish and the Churchill is hardly scratched (lots of PaK shells bounce right off). The only thing I tend to shy away from is marder/50mm blobs, etc. and that seems like something's wrong. I'm not sure what's to be done but 14 pop and giving sandbags a timer sounds like enough (and get rid of that IST slidedown ability while you're at it, it's complete horse**** that a tank can keep up with inf. while firing high explosives at the rate of an Ostwind ).

[Firesparks]

I disagre; I know my reaction to a single PaK now is to drive straight towards it, pop sandbags and roast it, and that seems like a bright red flag that something's wrong with the balance/counter system. By the time a PaK gets 2-3 shots off its crew will be doing the burning dervish and the Churchill is hardly scratched (lots of PaK shells bounce right off). The only thing I tend to shy away from is marder/50mm blobs, etc. and that seems like something's wrong. I'm not sure what's to be done but 14 pop and giving sandbags a timer sounds like enough (and get rid of that IST slidedown ability while you're at it, it's complete horse**** that a tank can keep up with inf. while firing high explosives at the rate of an Ostwind ).

Against a lone pak maybe. a sherman can do a mary go around against a lone Pak, something the Churchill can't perform. Taking a pak ahead on is pretty much the Croc's only option.
If there's more ATW around the churchill is going to get shot to pieces. Even if you lose the crew you can still recrew, while the brit just lost a 430 mp 320 fuel units.  

[metristanharris]

You can only have 4 crocodiles in a company, maximum.
They cost 330 FU each - 5 would cost 1650 FU. Maximum fuel even before the fuel nerf was 1625 - now it is 1500 FU.

That being said, at 330 FU and 13 pop the croc does still seem to be somewhat over the top.
It has 900 health base, with churchil armor(I would rate that at roughly StuG armour), which makes it quite survivable, the 6 pounder allows it to retain it's anti-vehicle capability, whereas the flamethrower is, without a doubt, the absolute best in the game.
To all extents and purposes - the churcil croc is to infantry what a panther is to tanks : the near-best tracked solution.
I would propose a further increase to 350 FU and 14 pop.


Why I do not propose to raise it more than that is quite simple : a lot of the controversy over the churchil croc comes from hull down, which is, quite frankly, OP.

0.75 received damage and penetration modifiers at a T2? Well yeah, they're only applied to the unit while it is in hulldown mode : but hulldown mode is entered instantly - the animation is there just for show. The bonuses are instantaneous. Not only that, hulldown has absolutely no cooldown. Meaning that hulldown not being used is the user's own being noobish.
Say what you will, but the ability to raise your croc's health from 900 to 1200, on top of a received penetration boost at any time you want is just OP for a T2.
Not only that - infantry around the hull-down tank receive bonuses to their survivability as well.

I propose granting a 3-5 second delay until the bonuses are applied and a 10 second cooldown(so you can't exit hulldown for 10 seconds after you press the button, can't re-enter it for 10 seconds after you leave it).

no plzz dont that'd make it completly unaffordabe besides like most heavy tanks in the game it has ah uge weakness its God damn slow  that makes pulling it out of a tight combat situation quite hard

[Spartan_Marine88]

Ohh, look big scary churchill croc

Heres my light at halftrack, there goes its treads, now 4-5 shots from a marder no more croc.
6-8 with hull down

But yeah its OP

[Firesparks]

By the basic british design, they have the worst mortar. Even if the price match the 2inch's performance, it's still the weakest mortar. All other mortar. The 25 pdr is still horrible, it's inferior to the 105mm in every way. Half damage, half range, and twice the scatter. This mean the British doctrine unit have to be extra good to fill the gaps left in the faction.

The croc and AVRE are the two only reliable siege breaker the RSE have. By comparison even the a Tiger player will have the nebel and the 81mm for support.

Speaking of tiger, it's also a pretty powerful anti-infantry itself (especially with HEAT round, and vertigo rolls a overrepaired croc).
The biggest difference is that the croc will eat schreck grenadier for breakfast, while the tiger still have some problem with the AB RR and the (buffed) 57mm. Seriously the at eagle buff the penetration of both the RR and 57mm by 20%. That's quite a lot. I would like to see how an infantry player deals with a blitz tiger, but it's either Armor or Airborne player lately. Armor have m10 spam, pershing, or the calli, while the Airborne have.... airborne. The infantry have the tank reaper sitting at t4 and the stacking shell. Bazooka is crap.

Back to the croc...
The wehr is forced to use the tiger or the panther to counter a croc, or very clever use of the stug or the pak. The PE have their marders, or the AT HT variants. The problem is that any reliable Croc counter get murdered by Airborne RR, while the airborne counter (KCH, Assault gren, mg42) get raped by the Croc. If it's only a brit player, the PIAT can usually be avoided, given the PIAT's difficulties with fast target, but the RR are just so much better. Even a PZIV IST get taken down quickly. Beside the RR the croc still have the 6 pdr.  
The PE have the Marder as a relatively cheap counter but they get shredd by Airborne, an

[Smokaz]

Id much rather face a tiger with inf than a croc, a croc demolishes inf, a tiger requires so many conditions to be effective and has inferior armor against infantry-at.

Your analysis of why sherman/croc + rrs can be good/annoying has some merit but in the perfect world where everyone microes correct the Marder/geschutz/pak will be firing at the sherman or a churchill accompanying RR- airborne before airborne can move into position and hit them because of RR range. You can then pull back and either force him to charge you with his RR's into your anti-infantry or his tank advances up, takes a shot at your inf but he doesnt manage to do the critical part, aka his RR's taking out the dedicated AT so his sherman/croc can roll you.

You can get off quite a few shots if you have LOS on the allied tank from max marder/geschutz/pak range, his airborne will immediatly charge thats when you have to be on the ball and pull back.

If anything a prolonged shifting backwards like this with the axis vehicle-based anti-tank (marder and geschutz) and some infantry against the RRs gets the allied tank hurt and the airborne cant get you, forcing them to move closer up to get your AT piece, exposing them to anti-infantry.

Of the 3 types of at mentioned here Pak is weak against RR's because of the RR snipe of the actual weapon combined with the speed of ab vs the speed of redeploying a pak. Geschutz is the most expensive out of the geschutz and the marder, but wehr can put in 1 mg42 with a mix of anti-inf and geschutz/pak making it impossible for RR's to support the tank for a prolonged engagement, meaning you pull back your geschutz pak after the RRs charge you from your long-range at piece hitting the croc/sherman. Marder is perhaps best , but has to stay immobile to use its special ability and doesnt get a mg42 to support its combo.

Technically you also have the ab coming to you in that situation, which is an advantage in itself. And I also thought the geschutz had the marder gun? Even without lockdown, it has rapid rounds to compensate.

[Mysthalin]

Same as Smokie. I'd rather take on a tiger than I'd take on a crocodile. The only time that I wouldn't want to face the tiger is if it had storm shreks around - but that's something to do with storm shreks, not the tiger in itself.

[panzerman]

tiger always need support even vs inf and have to be wary of rifles with stickies and tommies with brens.

only real fear a croc has is a panther or maybe two pIV, stormies can rape it in the ass but if they don't 1 hit the croc it can just toast them... when used well a croc is twice as good as a tiger in it's role.

[smurfORnot]

not to mention cheaper...

[metristanharris]

besides allies hav to deal with tigers/KT most of the time they take teamwork to kill not to mention at least 1 panther every battle why cant the axis hav to work together for once to take something out 

[Mister Schmidt]

It's epic how as soon as something that belongs to the allies is deemed OP they all start throwing around accusations of axis being completely OP.

[Mysthalin]

Tigers/KTs are both much more expensive, and thusly far rarer than Churchil Crocodiles. The Churchil Croc's cost and popcap also indicate it should NOT require teamwork to be taken down.

Panthers may be more often seen as they're non-doctrinal - but they're not exactly awe-inspiring when facing infantry with Hand-Held AT, and AP rounded 57mms are something that the Panther can't afford to get hit by. Saying they require teamwork to kill may be true - they're fast and have good armour - but to negate : no, all you need is to just play smart.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Back to the croc...
The wehr is forced to use the tiger or the panther to counter a croc, or very clever use of the stug or the pak. The PE have their marders, or the AT HT variants. The problem is that any reliable Croc counter get murdered by Airborne RR, while the airborne counter (KCH, Assault gren, mg42) get raped by the Croc. If it's only a brit player, the PIAT can usually be avoided, given the PIAT's difficulties with fast target, but the RR are just so much better. Even a PZIV IST get taken down quickly. Beside the RR the croc still have the 6 pdr. 
The PE have the Marder as a relatively cheap counter but they get shredd by Airborne, an

First imho Brits have an amazing mortar, it may be short range but its fast and accurate, you just need to micro it more then the others. The Piat probably misses a fast target about 1-2 more shots then an RR and does way more damage.

And to be completely honest a croc can barely pen or damage a P4

And might i remind you that this is about the Croc, AB have nothing to do with it. Marders murder churchills.