Churchill Crocodile

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[n8d0g]

I'd be more scared of the kettengrads tbh

The mark churchill VI makes me laugh at its face

The difference is I have double repairs. So its more equivalent to facing 21 Mark IVs.

And personally. I do think its the wrong counters. I've lost several vet 3 Crocs in just that manner that I have described. Nothing wrong with a panther rush on the flank backed up by preparatory fire. 

You give yourself too much credit nate - the thread sprung up after eternal's game against me.
I've been arguing from my OWN point of view - which is games both with and against the crocodile. Not to mention that me and david were the original crocspammers that cultivated the first wave of nerfs of the unit - it has been problematic for more than just the last few days.

No shit. Croc spam has been an issue since the first day I played EIR almost 3 years back. US croc spam was broken as hell.
Brit croc spam has been around for ages too you know.

[smurfORnot]

Nothing wrong with a panther rush on the flank

usually flank is covered by atg,and there are piats or bren nearby,which will easliy end with dead or retreating panther and alive croc...

[Armfelt]

If you are implying the churchil is sucky-sucky, then you're somewhat mislead in it's capabilities, Armfelt.

Mysthalin, I am implying that allied tanks is in general weaker than axis tanks. If you think that allied tanks are stronger then you are the one that is mislead.

The panther costs 50 percent more fuel and 2 more pop than a crocodile churchil - it's quite logical to assume it's somewhat harder to deal with than a churchil croc.

Ye, and a panther can take out 3-4 churchill crocs alone 1vs1. But on the field both parts will have support, and axis got invisible paks (that can cloak everywhere, ain't that op?) and long range mortars/nebels.

2 clowncars and a marder? Don't you think 3 separate sources of AT for one tank is a bit... much? Especially when it costs just 90 Fuel more than the regular Sherman, or 10 fuel more than a firefly.

Haha, why take a long time when you can kill something fast? 

Doctrinal abilities? A 300 extra health and 75 percent received penetration button without recharge as a T2 is lame? I would disagree. Boys AT rifles are kind of fail, the 6 pounder is far more adequate, but either way - it's irrelevant to the discussion.

The only good thing with hull down is that people is quite safe when repairing, but otherwise, yeah! we got T3 more hp on emplacements that almost no one use, slightly faster bren carriers and hold your horses(!) a timed lightning war ability... Btw, boys AT rifles slaughter PE, they even penetrate jagdpanthers front armor...

Nothing wrong with a panther rush on the flank

usually flank is covered by atg,and there are piats or bren nearby,which will easliy end with dead or retreating panther and alive croc...

Everything in Eirr is about knowing what the enemy have, where they have it, and get units to counter it. Not easy to accomplish, but if possible, there is no problem to flank or attack rear.

[LeoPhone]

Btw, boys AT rifles slaughter PE, they even penetrate jagdpanthers front armor...

lol, you live in fantasyland. boys AT rifles start having big trouble vs p4s, and them bouncing off hochkisses is not that rare.

but still, boys AT rifles are great. i just think it could be a bit more effective vs infantry, right now its useless against them.

[Demon767]

If you are implying the churchil is sucky-sucky, then you're somewhat mislead in it's capabilities, Armfelt.

Mysthalin, I am implying that allied tanks is in general weaker than axis tanks. If you think that allied tanks are stronger then you are the one that is mislead.

This made me lol.

Sherman 76 main battle tank are better than P4s main battle tank
Firefly Anti tank is better than Panther Anti tank

As you can see the main allied role of tanks are indeed better than there axis counter part.

Pershing/Tiger/KT not included.

[Armfelt]

Btw, boys AT rifles slaughter PE, they even penetrate jagdpanthers front armor...

lol, you live in fantasyland. boys AT rifles start having big trouble vs p4s, and them bouncing off hochkisses is not that rare.

but still, boys AT rifles are great. i just think it could be a bit more effective vs infantry, right now its useless against them.

It's true that they penetrate Jagd frontarmor, it has happen many times, even frequently, they just don't damage it alot.

If you are implying the churchil is sucky-sucky, then you're somewhat mislead in it's capabilities, Armfelt.

Mysthalin, I am implying that allied tanks is in general weaker than axis tanks. If you think that allied tanks are stronger then you are the one that is mislead.

This made me lol.

Sherman 76 main battle tank are better than P4s main battle tank
Firefly Anti tank is better than Panther Anti tank

As you can see the main allied role of tanks are indeed better than there axis counter part.

Pershing/Tiger/KT not included.

but not an unupgraded sherman. And Panthers are more allround than fireflies, when they are faster, have better armor, and can snipe infantry. Marders even outrange fireflies.

[CrazyWR]

unupgraded sherman < p4, have to pay for upgun.  Firefly is better, but more micro intensive.  You see many more vetted panthers than FF's.  And excluding the best tanks is silly, as it is there that Axis is far superior, instead of only slightly.

[Demon767]

yea on paper Panther is a better tank. but a well microed firefly outplays Panther in its role.

and thats why i mentioned the 76. did i mention the 75?

[Mysthalin]

Mysthalin, I am implying that allied tanks is in general weaker than axis tanks. If you think that allied tanks are stronger then you are the one that is mislead.

Slightly weaker =/= sucky sucky. Don't imply that the two are synonyms in this case(in the case of a kettenkrad, slightly worse than a kettenkrad WOULD mean sucky sucky, but not here).

Ye, and a panther can take out 3-4 churchill crocs alone 1vs1. But on the field both parts will have support, and axis got invisible paks (that can cloak everywhere, ain't that op?) and long range mortars/nebels.

Just like a churchil croc will take out 8-10 shrek squads alone 1v1. We have to assume neither side is retarded and does not engage a unit's hard counter with their unit when we are discussing balance. Yet again - if a panther and a pak need artillery to support their push upon a 6 pounder and a crocodile - that's a disproportionate amount of resources and popcap going in against a single croc.


When you take that much AT to counter a single crocodile, you'll have nearly no anti-infantry to field, making you very vulnerable to a bren + ATG or bren + PIAT combination.

The only good thing with hull down is that people is quite safe when repairing, but otherwise, yeah! we got T3 more hp on emplacements that almost no one use, slightly faster bren carriers and hold your horses(!) a timed lightning war ability... Btw, boys AT rifles slaughter PE, they even penetrate jagdpanthers front armor...

I use hulldown all the time - popping in and out of hulldown before each enemy shot is very easy to do - and you'd be an idiot not to.
Selective quoting of irrelevant doctrinal abilities?
How about the +15 percent health at T3 and 2x Repairs at T4 which actually AFFECT THE CROC? Also, have in mind hulldown mode's 300 extra HP is only matched by a T4 in the same doctrine - overrepair. And this 300 HP decays.

Even jeep MGs penetrate jagdpanther frontal armor. In this game - anything penetrates anything, but it doesn't happen very often.

The boys AT rifle has 8.75 percent chance of penetration upon Jagdpanther frontal armour. Hardly the "super penetration" you make it out to be.
22.45 percent penetration against Panzer IVs.
50 percent penetration against Marders.

Yeah - not that great against PE at all.

[Tymathee]

so, the allies have what, two units that you have to focus a lot of resources on and the axis are whining cuz they're not used to it? Oh boo hoo....how do you think allied players feel against panthers, tigers, king tigers, jagd pathers, that we see every game.

[NightRain]

I don't know about you tym but I lol at any heavy tank I see when I play as allies.

To me, they are just minor annoyances...

only 50mm HTs and Mortar Halftracks and mortars are what I don't consider as minor- but as major

[Demon767]

Tym why are you implying allies only play allies and axis only play axis?

doesnt seem like a good view to have in balance

[Mysthalin]

Is tymmie honestly implying I only play axis?

[shockcoil]

Duh you're clearly just a dirty axis fanboy

[Armfelt]

Slightly weaker =/= sucky sucky. Don't imply that the two are synonyms in this case(in the case of a kettenkrad, slightly worse than a kettenkrad WOULD mean sucky sucky, but not here).

I have never said that they were nearly slightly weaker. If I could choose a same tier KT for a CC, I would do that. And as people said above, to get the churchills that great as you describe, they need all of the tank boosts in the tree. Which means that without the buffs and + an increased price will make them _considerably_ less price effective. Don't you agree?

When you take that much AT to counter a single crocodile, you'll have nearly no anti-infantry to field, making you very vulnerable to a bren + ATG or bren + PIAT combination.

And where did you have those guys, when you told that you had atleast two 6pdrs all the time? It is 2 pop in difference to the guy with a panther, pak and a mortar. If both parts have more pop, then they can have more units on the field.

I use hulldown all the time - popping in and out of hulldown before each enemy shot is very easy to do - and you'd be an idiot not to.
Selective quoting of irrelevant doctrinal abilities?
How about the +15 percent health at T3 and 2x Repairs at T4 which actually AFFECT THE CROC? Also, have in mind hulldown mode's 300 extra HP is only matched by a T4 in the same doctrine - overrepair. And this 300 HP decays.

Even jeep MGs penetrate jagdpanther frontal armor. In this game - anything penetrates anything, but it doesn't happen very often.

The boys AT rifle has 8.75 percent chance of penetration upon Jagdpanther frontal armour. Hardly the "super penetration" you make it out to be.
22.45 percent penetration against Panzer IVs.
50 percent penetration against Marders.

Yeah - not that great against PE at all.

Myshtalin, if you wan't to play a sitting duck, be my guest. I'd rather be mobile especially so I can use the flame thrower that is fixed on the hull. That most of us find quite effective.

The doctrine abilities you mention are only on the "Engineering Spezialisation doctrine", except the time based HP buff that is in "armoured spezialisation". Why won't you take the Simcity tree and spam bofors and vickers and see how well that will go.  

lol, I have never seen a jeep penetrate a jagd frontarmor, but I have frequently seen a 2-3 boys squad take down 5~10% of jagd HP, in a relative short time.

And I hope no one will charge Boys Rifle boys against a PIV, that is just dumb, since they will be shot to bits, but 50% penetration against marders with a quite high ROF weapon is a lot, and what is the penetration chance and damage percent/shot against halftracks? Halftracks that the whole faction of PE mainly consists of?

Yeah - they are great against PE after all.

[Mysthalin]

I have never said that they were nearly slightly weaker.

So you're saying that all the allied tanks, with the exception of the CC, are sucky-sucky then?

If you would chose a KT over 4 crocs, then play terror, not RSE.

You don't really need all those buffs to make the CC effective - but you'd be an idiot not to take them if you're basing your company around them. Either way, it's irrelevant - I have only offered a minor nerf to the crocodile as a platform, with a significant one to the ability that's possibly skewing the balance.
A price rise making a unit less cost-effective? No shit?

And where did you have those guys, when you told that you had atleast two 6pdrs all the time?

1-2 6 pdrs at all time unless artied or double-teamed is different to 2 6 pdrs all the time. Misquoting ftl.

Myshtalin, if you wan't to play a sitting duck, be my guest. I'd rather be mobile especially so I can use the flame thrower that is fixed on the hull. That most of us find quite effective.

And how exactly does the no-set-up time, no cooldown hull down inhibit your ability to maintain ability?
Why exactly do you stress the importance of the flamethrower being on the hull when you know yourself the flamethrower is on the FRONT of the crocodile? Are you implying I'm supposed to hull down with my rear armour shown to the enemy?

lol, I have never seen a jeep penetrate a jagd frontarmor, but I have frequently seen a 2-3 boys squad take down 5~10% of jagd HP, in a relative short time.

Sure, I'll trust your word and no evidence of what you may or may have not seen over what the RGDs specifically state is possible. (sarcasm).

[DarkSoldierX]

You have to be completely still to use hulldown, thats how it slows you down.

[Armfelt]

We are talking about heavies, but sure we can discuss the versatility of cromwells contra Panzer IV, that both are main main battle tanks. It's the same thing about heavies. You can kill both tanks and infantry with all german heavies. But british heavies (the churchills) are still infantry tanks, and therefore not good against other tanks. Since Churchills are only good against infantry and somewhat against light vehicles. I'd say it would be stupid to raise the price to tanks that got the possibility to batter everything.

With 14 pop it would be too near other real heavies, but 10-30 extra fuel could work if the churchill is that much of a problem.

Nice to hear that we trust eachother, and I hope that you as me are being honest.

You have to be completely still to use hulldown, thats how it slows you down.

+1

[Mysthalin]

The churchil, yet again - costs significantly less than any other heavy. That's the reason why it's supposed, to naturally, be either more specialised, or outright weaker if it retains it's generalist purposes.

The churchil is about as effective at killing tanks and vehicles as the panther is at killing infantry, to be perfectly honest with you. You can't say it's "bad against tanks because I classify it as an infantry tank" - because it's simply not true - the 6 pounder, albeit not the best gun in the game, still has more chance to hit and penetrate enemy tanks than the panther gun has to hit and kill enemy infantry. These capabilities against tanks only go up for the MK 6 churchil.

You have to be completely still to use hulldown, thats how it slows you down.

Uhhh, no you don't. You can press the button while speeding down a road with the flanking manoeuvres off-map - the churchil will instantly stop and go into hull-down. Which does not inhibit the churchil's mobility due to no set-up times and no cooldown between hulling-down and back up. It's also a whole lot easier to use than, say, stug, hetzer or hellcat cloak which require perfect stillness.

[Armfelt]

The churchil, yet again - costs significantly less than any other heavy. That's the reason why it's supposed, to naturally, be either more specialised, or outright weaker if it retains it's generalist purposes.

You start good, seems like you got that part.

The churchil is about as effective at killing tanks and vehicles as the panther is at killing infantry, to be perfectly honest with you. You can't say it's "bad against tanks because I classify it as an infantry tank" - because it's simply not true - the 6 pounder, albeit not the best gun in the game, still has more chance to hit and penetrate enemy tanks than the panther gun has to hit and kill enemy infantry. These capabilities against tanks only go up for the MK 6 churchil.

It is still a "heavy" with a cannon that is worse than a PIV. If a PIV could kill the croc, then it would be crap.
I hope you agree that a Panther is much better as an infantry tank, than a croc is a tank destroyer?
The CC is a great infantry tank that have a balanced pop and manpower cost, but could have a slightly raised fuel cost.

And how exactly does the no-set-up time, no cooldown hull down inhibit your ability to maintain ability?

But if hulldown takes no time to build, then that's a problem.