[wher] Panzer IV

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[panzerman]

is it just me or since the last major wipe p4 suck arse and fail to hit inf...

use to be good for their inf killind and ability to counter shermans to an extent.
now they miss heaps, they are weak...and have not really seen them do anything...

[LeoPhone]

everyone uses sherman upgun these days, and that means death for your P4

[Tymathee]

they still do great vs infantry, its just now you can't use them as aggressively as before because of

1. more counter options
2. sherman upgun.
3. m-10 misfire "fixed"

[Rocksitter]

 Who out there is running P4s with success?

 just wondering   Wild i know you are one..

 Who out there is running P4s with success?

 just wondering   Wild i know you are one..

 right now on the leader boards the axis main tanks ( STuG Panther P4) have 17 vet 3 while the US Sherman has 16 vet 3s

[Firesparks]

the US player pay extra for their 76mm sherman so I think that's fine.

The main problem I have with PZIV is the fact that the much cheaper m10 tends to roll over PZIV, and the m10 can also run over infantry as well. In my experience, schrecks are uncommon enough in EIR that rampant m10 tends to be problematic.  Pak's a good counter but setting it up is much more difficult than just having a schreck team sitting near your pZIV.

[Calstifer]

Lol, P4's are very powerful. They snipe my airbone with an almost non-existant miss. Its like focus fire on a HT.

[fallensoldier7]

No reason to run PIVs if there are many armor buffed m10s and upgunned shermans running around.  Tank destroyers cost less than PIVs and they kill them very efficiently.  PIVs are 12 pop and very micro-intensive as well as expensive.  If you don't get PIVs you could always get infantry which are way easier to maintain and less micro intensive than PIVs are.

Despite all of that, I still run PIVs in my company.  I just feel naked without some type of medium tank to kite infantry with.

[EliteGren]

To be honest, Rolling thunder P4s are very beast and should beat a doctrine buffed M10 if you keep moving. If you have Vet you will enjoy almost 50% less received damage. Other than having HEAT or RT I don't see P4s being as good as they used to be due to the abnormal amount of M10s I've seen lately.

[Firesparks]

Lol, P4's are very powerful. They snipe my airbone with an almost non-existant miss. Its like focus fire on a HT.

The sherman can snipe infantry as well, and I would dare say that the m10's more deadly to the pziv than the Panther is deadly to the sherman.

the m10's have a very high DPS. it deal 143.75/ 5.6 sec. That's even higher than the tiger's 137.5/ 6sec or the panther/7 sec. The M10 gun is powerful enough that it almost always penetrate the pziv armor as well.

At least against the panther/tiger/KT a sherman have a good chance of getting away, but the m10's faster than the PzIV, so it can't get away.

[Hicks58]

I'd be inclined to disagree that a M10 is holds more lethality to the PIV than the Panther holds to the Sherman.

A Panther can sit at it's max range, keep pulling back and kite the Sherman so it never gets a shot off... And if the Sherman does pull into range, it's penetration at long range wont be too big of an issue against Panther armour, even upgunned. But supposing the Sherman does manage to keep in range for the entire fight, the Panther would still respectably win a slug fest against it and be capable of still doing some damage in field.

Meanwhile, an M10 would have to make explicit use of it's environment to get such a result against a PIV, as a face off fight would result in the M10 being put down - Albeit with the PIV losing a respectable chunk of health in the process.

A Pair of M10's though... Thats a whole different ball game, as I believe M10's truly shine when paired up with another piece of AT, especially another M10. Same thing goes for PIV's, they are a supporting tank rather than a Tank Hunter as the M10 is. A PIV + Shreck can do nasty things to enemy armour used right.

[Mysthalin]

Hicks, tell my observation M10s that they can't kite P4s. I dare you to.

[brn4meplz]

an M10 company will trash anything fielded by the Axis. all you need to do is avoid mass paks and let a team mate kill that stuff. Observation is key to doing phenomenal with them but they are still good in their own right. You don't even need AP rounds or anything with them. you can just juke around buildings and stuff getting the odd shot off and you'll come out on top

[Mysthalin]

AP rounds on M10 spam is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Tank Command + Armor Plating ONLY.

[3rdCondor]

is it just me or since the last major wipe p4 suck arse and fail to hit inf...

use to be good for their inf killind and ability to counter shermans to an extent.
now they miss heaps, they are weak...and have not really seen them do anything...

mine kills stuff

[Nimitz]

I'm not 100% sure but could it be Shermans cost less fuel than PIVs?

Otherwise imo PIVs are fine.

[LeoPhone]

they just lowered the p4s price to match sherman.

[Hicks58]

Hicks, tell my observation M10s that they can't kite P4s. I dare you to.

That's Observation M10's. A T3 unlock specific to the Armour coy.

Any M10's from the other two doctrines wouldn't quite fare as well against PIVs unless doubled up, or have a scouting unit to let your M10 kite.

You could also argue that a Improved Barrels/HEAT Rounds PIV would make a mess of non doctrinal M10's.

And last note...

AP rounds on M10 spam is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Tank Command + Armor Plating ONLY.

In your opinion. :p

[Mysthalin]

Jeep. 3 popcap, 110 MP 10 FU. Quite affordable, I just prefer observation since it's 0 popcap 40 Mu. .

Not to mention with M10 spam the only other thing you'll truly want in the tree is Field Repairs, with possibly also Experienced Loaders. It being a T3 unlock doesn't matter all that much.

AP rounds on M10s is only really useful against Jagdpanthers and Panthers - otherwise you'll penetrate either all, or most of the time. KTs and Tigers are just too slow to ever get a shot off at you, so you don't need the AP rounds to beat the KT/Tiger anyway - it would just make it happen slightly faster. Whereas Going for Armor Plating allows you to take an extra shot from ALL of these tanks(well, KT and JP would also require you to have vet 1 to survive an extra shot, but still), and as much as two extra shots from P4s and Hetzers. Vet 1 + Armor plating equals two shots extra from a StuG as well. It's just that great.


Also, Improved Barrels makes no difference in the M10 vs P4 engagement.

[Hicks58]

I'm not on about the cost of the T3, i'm on about its a single doctrine's T3, and you have to have got to it.

AP rounds does some extra damage as well as penetration, which can make the extra difference in the engagement... That, and i've seen a fair few M10 rounds fired off from max range bounce off a PIV. AP rounds would for all intents and purposes, completely negate this happening.

With the amount of Panthers being fielded these days, AP rounds would see their use, especially if you used them as backup to a Pershing with HVAP. (Personally prefer OBM with my Pershings, but this is a possible use for AP rounds)

Improved Barrels would make a bit of difference... Refer to the occasional bouncing issue with the M10 at range lol. A slight difference, but one none the less.

[EliteGren]

Improved barrels are useless against M10s. Even upgun pumas penetrate them regularly.