[CW][PE] Mobile Artillery. Overpriced ?

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[NightRain]

I'll open this discussion with the similar way I started my earlier thread. However to follow the rules (and doing a little error by adding 2 similar things in the same thread)

M7 Priest
Hummel

These two mobile units are HIGHLY over priced comparing to immobile units. Those immobile units are: 25Pdr and 105mm.

25Pdr costs 360 manpower and 120 fuel. 9 Pool and costs 7 popcap to field.
105 costs 380 manpower and 160 fuel. 12 Pooö and costs 8 popcap to field.

Quite cheap in my opinnion. VERY CHEAP! However I do believe 25Pdr is justified to such low cost due to its shorter range.

Now lets compare these two Mobile Artillery units.

M7 Priest costs 465 Manpower and 355 fuel. 24 Pool and costs 10 popcap to field. * MINOR CHANGE M7 PRIEST IS NOW 300 FUEL!
Hummel costs 480 manpower and 360 fuel. 18 Pool and costs 10 popcap to field. *MINOR CHANGE HUMMEL IS NOW 320 FUEL!

Now...really? Is M7 Priest justified to cost about 3x more than a 25Pdr? Should a hummel cost 3 times more than a 25Pdr? OR 2x more than a howizer?

I think not.

Mobile OR immobile they are put into one task. Bomb the enemy with indirect fire. Is the difference between mobility and immobility that huge thing that the cost will be 3x-2x more than a same unit type?

I understand that mobile unit can't be bombed with a V1, RA, Firestorm whatsoever offmap if they get in line of sight. HOWEVER! Mobile artillery can be destroyed with a bombing run or a Henschel run...so, I'll ignore offmap thing right here.

So dear EIRR community. Should Mobile artillery cost tons of more resources than a immobile one? Why having a hummel as PE is more punishing than giving? Why having a priest forces you to reduce your armor and support pool so that one won't pay PP from it?

I as well guarantee, that losing a immobile unit (25Pdr/105mm) is much less of a grief than losing a M7 Priest or a Hummel.

What does the community think about this?

[NightRain]

bump

[Tymathee]

hummel used to be the 2nd highest arty piece nearly cloes to 600 450, it's a lot better now but yes, they are that good.

Doc abilities the howie gets...t3 art experts
doc abilities the 25 gets? unknown - more than likely creeping barrage and super charge

doc abilities the hummel gets - fire, and the t4 the fire trumps anything the other 2 get.
doc abiities the priest get - unknown but probably supercharge, creeping, airburst,

also...they're mobile so it's easier to keep them alive than an immobile arty piece, and the priest is the most accurate artillery piece in the game, the Hummel is the strongest and it has 100% penetration vs all armor types so if you hit a tank, it will hurt it ALOT it rapes emplacements and other artillery pieces, the howie, 25 and priest can't boast that.

The callie can hurt other art pieces but because of its spread, and the limited range, you'll be hard pressed to get that lcose

[NightRain]

I would rather NOT have Doctorine abilities taken into account. Strip those off and what you get? Still overly priced unit types.

[Firesparks]

I would rather NOT have Doctorine abilities taken into account. Strip those off and what you get? Still overly priced unit types.

considering how powerful the artillery piece become with their doctrine bonus, it would be irresponsible not to consider it. If their base price are to be lowered, the doctrine bonus would have to receive a significant nerf.   

[Mysthalin]

Units need to balanced to their efficiency as a base : veterancy, doctrine bonuses and all other things should just be forgotten.

If some doctrine abilities or the veterancy is OP - you nerf the doctrine abilities or the veterancy - not the unit as a base.

I do agree with Nightrain - mobile artilery is NOT cost-efficient considering the alternatives.

[Tymathee]

I would rather NOT have Doctorine abilities taken into account. Strip those off and what you get? Still overly priced unit types.

even without them they're still worth it. like i said, priests are highly accuracy and hummels get 100% penetration vs everything. they're not infantry killers, they're used best to kill things sitting still they tear buildings and emplacements to pieces. I"ve taken out m8's t-17s etc with one or 2 hits from a hummel (on accident) i once hit an m-10 moving and took it out, was hilarious. they penetrate pershings as well so if u catch one repairng, pop a hummel barrage on it and it can do some serious damage.

[NightRain]

Despite their 'lucky' effectiveness there are incidents that create such funny (even hilarious) cases.

Like 105 killing a mortar halftrack. Or 25Pdr destroying retreating tank.

HOWEVER

Tym I got to ask it...why would you pay 3x times more to do the exact same thing with a unit? Pay 3 more Pool probably forcing you to sell a MG or a ATG? Saying that "Don't get it then" would simply imply that why the unit(s) are in the game in the first place? Immobile Artillery simply IS > Mobile Artillery.  The cost in a mobile unit should not be 3x more of a cost of a immobile unit.

What benefits does a 3x cost give to you?
1) Mobility. I call this a minor defence. The unit can move but is slow, very slow and only priest has a pop gun defending it. Mobility as well grants unlimited range due to the movement.

Mobile artillery apperantly costs 3x more because of 1 thing. Mobility is Minor defence (can move away) and unlimited range (depends on the game situation)

Right what does immobile artillery have?
1) Lower cost and pool (cheaper to field too)
2) For 1 mobile unit you can have 3(!)
3) You can recrew to replace lost crew
4) Having one or two does not hurt your company


In the case of cost. Which is better? 3 Barrels or 1 Barrel? I say one battery of 105 is always better than 3 Priests. 30 Pop cap vs 24 Pop cap.

For 2 25Pdrs you waste 14 pop. That is 1 priest and ATG.

Hummel, the only barrel that fires non flameable rounds on the axis side (for now bugged range) it won't be worth it. Its not cost effective every game. It is SIMPLY not paying itself. Wow you got 1 ATG and 5 dudes. Congrats was it worth it? No it wasn't. Even a Mortar Halftrack gets more kills than 1 hummel ever would and guess what, you can have 2 without hurting your army all too badly.

Ontop of these highly expensive units they are Tier 3. One has to grind to lvl 7 and then pay 3 points for it to unlock these two units while more effective ones are tier 1 and non-tier unlocks. I don't see the point in it (NOT when Calliope that is currently the most effective yet expensive mobile unit that is a tier 2 unlock)

Dear Community.

Buff Hummel and M7 Priest to have SOME sort of an advantage over cheaper immobile artillery bases. The current one (mobility) is not making them worth 3 25Pdrs/105mms

+ Tym, give me replays where either of those artillery pieces make a huge difference on the field to prove your point. I've proven mine by showing off their costs and comparing them to cheaper versions.

[Tymathee]

i think one of the reasons for the high price is just like with the new nebels, restrictiveness. YOu dont want to see 2-3-4 hummels or priests on the field, same with callies. they're also easier to keep as vet because u can fire and move it back to spawn b4 any retaliation can reach you. I used to run a very successful hummel company when the mp and fu were a lot higher than it is now, maybe its just not for you, some people aren't very good with certain units because of how they play. I know i was horrible with AB and still kinda am and other stuff. like i just dont use stugs, i suck with them, they're cheap and i've seen them used quite effectively in my hands they're crap and i feel they're useless but put them in Mysts hand and they're rape :shrug: its like that.

[NightRain]

So the fault is on me? So the fault for such high cost is to restrict it? Hell, for 2 Priest I can have 6 (!)  25Pdrs that do the exact same thing. I don't see any restriction on artillery to be honest with you. If you wanted to restrict artillery you'd increase price on ALL barrels available other than mortars.

So in short you are telling me to l2p with a unit that has one purpose that is shooting other units with indirect fire without any constructive critism or balance offer WHY the unit is so high in its cost other than to restrict its use.

It is highly common to see 2-3 105s on the field (not so often with 25Pdr as brits don't use it all too much due to 2 things, Short range and RCA is not in) is it not? If so then the restriction thing is highly imbalanced. Why? You can have several 105s and 25Pdrs and the restriction is only tied to Mobile artillery. (Note this discussion only includes units that fire real shells and not rockets). I still ask, what is the difference between mobile and immobile artillery? both are meant for the same task YET AGAIN! Yet their cost is 3x the same things. This is where I see a problem. 3 105/25Pdrs is not = 1 M7 Priest or Hummel.

This thread's point is to require a price buff on Hummel and Priest. Because they are expensive compared to Immobile things note; I've pointed out several times that Hummel/Priest do the exact same task as 25Pdr/105mm with a 3x More expensive cost without there being any good reason for their pricing.

Also I've pointed out that mobility is only a minor defence. Running up and shooting and then retreating back to spawn is protection Same protection is given to gun crews that can retreat off map after abandoning their guns. Note this: These abandoned guns can be recrewed if they survive to extend its use. Henschel and bombing run are offmaps that doesn't make Mobile artilleries lives any easier so being in spawn is only a quick get away for mobile units that can't abandon their vehicles
____
On a side note to this all. I'd suggest to duplicate 25Pdrs. RCA one that is more expensive but has better range from 25Pdr Commandos and Engineers have but this is only side note.
____

[gamesguy2]

25 pounders blow.  I'd take a priest over three 25lber any day.

Artillery fortification will be looked into.

[Firesparks]

So the fault is on me? So the fault for such high cost is to restrict it? Hell, for 2 Priest I can have 6 (!)  25Pdrs that do the exact same thing. I don't see any restriction on artillery to be honest with you. If you wanted to restrict artillery you'd increase price on ALL barrels available other than mortars.

So in short you are telling me to l2p with a unit that has one purpose that is shooting other units with indirect fire without any constructive critism or balance offer WHY the unit is so high in its cost other than to restrict its use.

It is highly common to see 2-3 105s on the field (not so often with 25Pdr as brits don't use it all too much due to 2 things, Short range and RCA is not in) is it not? If so then the restriction thing is highly imbalanced. Why? You can have several 105s and 25Pdrs and the restriction is only tied to Mobile artillery. (Note this discussion only includes units that fire real shells and not rockets). I still ask, what is the difference between mobile and immobile artillery? both are meant for the same task YET AGAIN! Yet their cost is 3x the same things. This is where I see a problem. 3 105/25Pdrs is not = 1 M7 Priest or Hummel.

This thread's point is to require a price buff on Hummel and Priest. Because they are expensive compared to Immobile things note; I've pointed out several times that Hummel/Priest do the exact same task as 25Pdr/105mm with a 3x More expensive cost without there being any good reason for their pricing.

Also I've pointed out that mobility is only a minor defence. Running up and shooting and then retreating back to spawn is protection Same protection is given to gun crews that can retreat off map after abandoning their guns. Note this: These abandoned guns can be recrewed if they survive to extend its use. Henschel and bombing run are offmaps that doesn't make Mobile artilleries lives any easier so being in spawn is only a quick get away for mobile units that can't abandon their vehicles
____
On a side note to this all. I'd suggest to duplicate 25Pdrs. RCA one that is more expensive but has better range from 25Pdr Commandos and Engineers have but this is only side note.
____

The hummel's very effective once you get the incendiary unlock, and the vehicle is tougher than the 105 gun. Beside having mobility it also have more hit points(or maybe because allied atw are generally weaker). Lastly it doesn't have the liability of an exposed crew, meaning less vulnerable to counter arty and immunity to small arms.
Same thing with the priest, and the creeping barrage is even more rape than the incendiary barrage.

From what I've seen the 105mm suffer from accuracy problem, and the company bluff doesn't quite turn the piece into a death machine, atleast it's not as powerful as incendiary barrage or creeping barrage.

[NightRain]

Yes everything becomes god like with Doctorine abilities, but this is about the BASE unit itself not about doc abilities that buff it Firey.

[Mysthalin]

Yet again - if a doctrine ability is too strong - nerf the doctrine ability. A player should NOT be forced to take a T3 or even a T4 to make his unit worth the cost.

On a side-note : creeping barrage will be 1-use and you'll have to pay munitions to buy it. Incendiary barrage is free and infinte-use. It's logical to assume that a pay-to-use barrage will be better than a free one.

25 pounders blow.  I'd take a priest over three 25lber any day.

3 25pdrs in RSE or Commandos? Yes, I'd probably take a priest over that as well.
3 25pdrs in RCA, where getting Supercharged rounds is more or less so a given(Considering it'll be a T1 like before) - I'll take the 3 25 pdrs, which will force the enemy to make 3 attacks behind my lines to kill them all off, rather than just 1.

Or, failing that, I'd take 3 105 howitzers over the single priest, if we're going to completely ignore doctrine abilities.

[gamesguy2]

3 25pdrs in RSE or Commandos? Yes, I'd probably take a priest over that as well.
3 25pdrs in RCA, where getting Supercharged rounds is more or less so a given(Considering it'll be a T1 like before) - I'll take the 3 25 pdrs, which will force the enemy to make 3 attacks behind my lines to kill them all off, rather than just 1.

Or, failing that, I'd take 3 105 howitzers over the single priest, if we're going to completely ignore doctrine abilities.

Priests don't die to one hit from a scorched earth anti-building barrage.

[Mister Schmidt]

Night, you keep disregarding the fact that the Priest and Hummel do not do "EXACTLY the same thing as a 105/25pdr!" They are FAR more accurate and FAR more powerful, respectively. However, I most likely wouldn't use them either, due to knowing that once on the field, they're the main target for all enemy attacks.

[AmPM]

The strength of each in damage is pretty unimportant, they are all used for really one thing, hitting blobs and support weapons.

Give me 3 105's or 3 25lbrs, they have redundancy, cost less and fire more. Their damage and accuracy is fine for the job they need to do.

[Mgallun74]

mobility is the key, once you deploy a howi its there for good, if you deploy early and find your out of range in the ongoing battle oh well, its a 9 pop pos.  25pdr can move thou?

priest and hummel can move from area to area on the map, i would glady with my infantry company take a priest over my howi.. they for the most part are more durable as well, it will take ANTI tank units to basically kill them, with the 25pdr or howi you can run up to them with a normal rifle or volks squad and kill it..

[NightRain]

As Mysthalin said. 3 25Pdrs > 1 Priest.

3 of same unit type do better than 1 unit type. Always. I've been ignorant at one point 2 105s is nearly the cost as one Priest and Hummel while I've been calling it 3x. Anyway 3x 105 is only 80 fuel more than 1 Priest.

Night, you keep disregarding the fact that the Priest and Hummel do not do "EXACTLY the same thing as a 105/25pdr!" They are FAR more accurate and FAR more powerful, respectively. However, I most likely wouldn't use them either, due to knowing that once on the field, they're the main target for all enemy attacks.

Exactly HOW much more Accurate? I think not. 105, 25Pdr and Priest all fire six shots. Hummel 4.
I have not seen any better accuracy on mobile or in immobile.

Mgallun you are aware that 105 has the longest range? Does it have to reach the enemy spawn in order to be effective? Nope it doesn't
Would you sell a Sherman and a M10 to get that spare fuel for that Priest? Or would you sell several M10s to get that extra fuel rather than sell 1 M10 and halftrack to get that 105mm? I would take 105 instead. Its 8 pop sitting there. Once something comes to its range just fire away.

Priest doesn't die to anti building barrage, but it dies to henschel run just like Hummel dies to a Bombing run. There is a chance of survival but one should never count on it. "Run away from it if you see it coming?" Exactly how? They can move ,but they are slow.

[Mgallun74]

As Mysthalin said. 3 25Pdrs > 1 Priest.

3 of same unit type do better than 1 unit type. Always. I've been ignorant at one point 2 105s is nearly the cost as one Priest and Hummel while I've been calling it 3x. Anyway 3x 105 is only 80 fuel more than 1 Priest.

Night, you keep disregarding the fact that the Priest and Hummel do not do "EXACTLY the same thing as a 105/25pdr!" They are FAR more accurate and FAR more powerful, respectively. However, I most likely wouldn't use them either, due to knowing that once on the field, they're the main target for all enemy attacks.

Exactly HOW much more Accurate? I think not. 105, 25Pdr and Priest all fire six shots. Hummel 4.
I have not seen any better accuracy on mobile or in immobile.

Mgallun you are aware that 105 has the longest range? Does it have to reach the enemy spawn in order to be effective? Nope it doesn't
Would you sell a Sherman and a M10 to get that spare fuel for that Priest? Or would you sell several M10s to get that extra fuel rather than sell 1 M10 and halftrack to get that 105mm? I would take 105 instead. Its 8 pop sitting there. Once something comes to its range just fire away.

Priest doesn't die to anti building barrage, but it dies to henschel run just like Hummel dies to a Bombing run. There is a chance of survival but one should never count on it. "Run away from it if you see it coming?" Exactly how? They can move ,but they are slow.

yes i know the range of the howi, i use them alot so i know what iam talking bout with them, and yes, i would sell a sherm or m10 to get priest, to me, mobility is the key.