Someone tell me Why Germands Need Pak 40s?

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[Hicks58]

Wait a minute.....

you are suggesting the Brits need a Fire fly, Piats, cloak able 6 Pdr, and a movable 17Pdr

Hmmmmmm

Firefly is a glass cannon which gets it's arse handed to it by 50mm HT's, well micro'd Panthers and Shrecks from just about any range.

Piats are only good when your enemy isn't paying attention or if you pull off a button/get your enemy stuck for a moment.

6 Pounder cloak adds no benefits unless your using a Commandos T4, and has no cover for the men using the weapon.

The Firefly is supposedly our answer to heavy armour, but for 12 pop and 320 fuel it does a pretty lousy job. 14 pop and 385 fuel if you throw in the CCT to get the most out of it.

I'd like to see the Firefly be better at it's job or cost less pop tbh... I can see having to use a Firefly, CCT and mobile 17 pounder being VERY fragile, awkward to use, and a liability in field unless your team mates have some strong cover.

[AmPM]

Cover it with a Bren carrier and its still cheaper than a Panther =p Good luck to the Panther trying to closer in too.

Also, it always wins vs a Tiger or KT. It has longer range and is faster.

[Hicks58]

Yeah, you have to use the FF and a secondary piece of equipment to use it at it's peak of AT.

Tigers, KT's, Panthers... They can all perform AI from reasonably well to absolutely making a massacre of Infantry.

And they still perform their AT role.

FF + CCT = 14 pop of pure AT. 18 If you throw in the MMG.

Tiger is 16 pop of AT and AI.

Panther is 15 pop of good quality AT and it can reasonably snipe Infantry.

King Tiger is 18 pop of deadly AI and will put a nasty hole in any Armour you can pull a shot off against.

The Axis have options that can fill both your AT and AI needs in one package. The British pop equivalent get's you pure AT, which isn't entirely reliable if your against PE and they pull up 50mm HT's.

[AmPM]

Panther....AI? Loool, oh, and my mans get sniped by FF's all the time. Also, CCT has flankspeed and can destroy whole squads easily.

The Tiger and KT are doctrine unlocks, the FF is available to all doctrines of Brits.

[brn4meplz]

The Panther and FF are pretty much Equal for AI ability. It's the MG gunner that throw it over the top making it ever so sligtly better. Even when you factor in the CCT accuracy bonus. Flank speed on a CCT destroys its turning ability actually making infantry on anything but roads harder to crush.

The panther is a better vehicle. but taking on a firefly isn't exactly the most cost effective move. especially considering Button. You can lose the Panther to a firefly and lose the 500 fuel. even if he loses the FF he's probably got another. not to many people run with 2+ Panthers.

[RoyalHants]

in my expeirence the  FFs canNOT unless vet 2+ and you dont see many of those these days target inf affectivley its down to luck it it his anything and CCT cant run over atgs

[AmPM]

in my expeirence the  FFs canNOT unless vet 2+ and you dont see many of those these days target inf affectivley its down to luck it it his anything and CCT cant run over atgs

And a Panther can kill an ATG in the same situation a FF can, by circling it. God help you if there are 2.

The point is, the Panther and FF are about equal if you look at resource costs. Brit AT is in no way lacking currently in comparison to any other AT. Also, the PaK 40 is highly overrated. Which is fine, because it means all Allied armor avoids the field if it can instead of just rushing it, taking the 1 hit, and killing it.

[RoyalHants]

2 shots on panther if they bounce they scratch the paintwork
for the FF bounce almost as much damage but they usually penetrate which mean if no vet thats a large chunk of your fuel bin damaged

[brn4meplz]

Ugh, do you know the reload on a FF while Circling an ATG!!! It takes longer to reload the closer the target is!

The issue is, Churchills are about the only thing the Axis see on a regular basis that need heavy ATG. and even then they can stumble their way through them(mostly because Most churchills don't carry the firepower that other heavy tanks do. If they do it's on a long cooldown(AVRE)

Speaking of which from a histroical standpoint AVRE's should wtf wreck tanks. but it has a .25dmg modifier against most axis tanks. the 290mm Petard is pretty much the first battlefield application of HESH and the spalling should destroy tank crews.

[AmPM]

Brn, keep your crazy realism away, you know what happens when we go there (88mm HE rounds annihilating Shermans for the same reason).

Yes, it will take it a while, but its doable, just like with a Panther. Neither one is good at it really.

Also, if you want to talk realism, the PaK 40 should be the standard issue ATG. But its not.

[Nijo]

I like the pershing as it is. No need to change anything.


Nijo

[RoyalHants]

Brn, keep your crazy realism away, you know what happens when we go there (88mm HE rounds annihilating Shermans for the same reason).

Yes, it will take it a while, but its doable, just like with a Panther. Neither one is good at it really.

Also, if you want to talk realism, the PaK 40 should be the standard issue ATG. But its not.

well while were on the subject realism moveable 25q and 17qs FF with miles of range mixed rounds ap and HE sound good ^^ no?

gameplay>realism

[brn4meplz]

Yeah but even with Gameplay the AVRE should do more then .25 I think. it just seems weird having a round that wtf obliterated everything in sight on a 2 minute cooldown doing nothing. Tanks can mvoe out of the way but it'd be funny to see the AVRE blast it's counter to shit. (or actually do dmg to a KT)

[puddin]

Also, why do the Allies need AP rounds on their ATGs if they already do more damage and they can easily get 2 Pershings per company

Here i will take 6 ATGS.. Sit a panther and a P4 in front of them.... 

Lets see how many shots it takes to penetrate.... 

I have to Flank to get an AT GUN to Actually KILL armor....  And as Quick as it is.... Its normally getting kills due to axis mistakes....

The AP Rounds are the only thing that keeps axis scared not to directly charge all the at guns head first and not be worried at all...

In fact i am amazed i don;t see it more often.... 

I have seen dual tigers in a game sit there across from 2 57s cowering.... 

And it takes again... A t4 in infantry to counter units you get at Teir 3 and lower levels than that T4? 

So when are T4s balencing UNits? 

I guess then by your calculations Rangers should get more health because god forbid 4 man KCH stumble upon them... Thats the same as sayign that... 

AMPM its been so long since you played on the other side you;ve forgotten. 

UNlesss your AB or tank reapers, If ypou face 1 terror and 1 blitz with heavies, its over if you play it right....  And if you face2 terror players that are not sscared to use their Kts?  You can sit there and let it ktake hits....

[3rdCondor]

A man is only as big as his AT gun. Pak 40 ftw.

[AmPM]

I just kill heavy tanks with M10's and M18's, but thats just me, also, Stickies generally keep them from charging your ATGs, not AP rounds.

[puddin]

Ahhh M-10s and M-187s....  Don;t they die in 3 shots now to the pak 40...  1 pak giun covering will kill 3 M-10s before the KT dies

And if you only have 1 pak, thats idiotic theres always infantry at as well...

Just kinda makes me laugh how in One thread you say the Pak 40 is underpowered when it could 2 and 3 shot the tanks you mention to kill a KT... And also comiing up to the KT, at least 1 of those tanks gets shot 50-75% of the time.  Sooooooo.... 

Again AMPM, I fail to see that.  But again depending ont he threead you argue in the units are all different i suppose... 

[AmPM]

Well see Pudding, normally a KT doesn't die if its supported properly anyway.

A PaK 40 or PaK 38 accomplishes the EXACT same thing.

3 shots or 4 shots, the single M10 will die.

No use a couple ambushing M18's and you can toss some hurt on, even better, just use 57mm's and put some sticky squads in front of them.

[Mysthalin]

Some misconceptions cleared up in a nutshell.

The pak 38, without using cloak has exactly 99 percent the DPS of the pak 40(or 57mm with AP rounds). The only thing it has less of is penetration. Cloak puts the pak 38 mm at actually higher DPS.

The only thing in the game capable of bouncing a 57mm AP round is the Jagdpanther, at 10 percent chance of doing so, going up to 13.5 percent at long range.

The KT, contrary to popular belief simply can NOT bounce an AP rounds shell, at any range.

It has tiger armour with an inherent 0.8 penetration modifier on top of it, so :

0.35(base 57mm pen vs tiger) x 0.85 (long range pen modifier for ATG) x 0.8(inherent KT boost) x 5 = 1.19

[AmPM]

Thank you Myst for getting the numbers.