Remove t17?

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[Spartan_Marine88]

I was being sarcastic about the M8 being op

but the m8 is far better then the t-17

T17 dies to 2 pak shots ? no

Neither does an M8

Im guessing im getting at the t-17 being redundant but not OP

M8 is still better

[nugnugx]

I was being sarcastic about the M8 being op

but the m8 is far better then the t-17

vs inf , pak , ht t17 is better in every way

[Spartan_Marine88]

vs inf , pak , ht t17 is better in every way

No its not

Maybe against HT's and single squads of inf sure (then again ht's dies in about 4-5 hits)

but paks die so fast it doesn't matter. The 50. cal on top is infinetly better then the t-17's dual shot when it comes to multiple inf squads

[puddin]

Before you complain about the T-17, Use it and play with it in your company.  IF your just fighting against it you know nothing...  You seeing a player's skill with it.

If you try to use it, you will sing a different tune, Go ahead, Build a company and include them in it.  See how it works for an armor player

ITs AN UNLOCK-ABLE UNIT. For 1 Doctrine,  Go ahead, Try to use it in a comany when it uses 1/10th your Fuel, and try to put in some tanks s well, Wait 3 M-10s is 570 FU and then you can put in 4 T-17s at 600 Fuel and all your Fu is wasted .  3-M10s for anti armor doesn;t do well as they only work well in packs

but hey, A Light vehicle for 9 popcap and 125 Fu that has has NO ANTI VEHICLE capability and on;ly anti Infantry... Works well...  I don;t think it would be able to kill an AC now ad ays because it has puma armor.  

So Again its completely one dementional.  Again tell me how a full one dementional unit is Op?  Its only job is infantry, It can;t harm light vehicles like in VCOH because all axis light vehicles have puma armor, No Hts to Kill, Hell even bikes hate 4-6 hits... If it can hit them....  Its only good against soft inf targets and thats it.  

So again, Explain how a one dementional expensive unit should not be powerful?  THe puma is powerfull.. But its Cheap, AC is powerful but its cheap

AC VS At gun = AC win
Puma Vs At Gun = Puma Win
t-17 Vs AT gun =  T-17 Win

Difference?

Yea i can make that argument to.  I have done it in games

[puddin]

Hts now have puma armor, T-17 does not Penn puma armor...  Soooo no T-17 has no light vehicle capability unless its against kettens or Bikes

[105TigerHunters]

Pre ToV there was no t17 and no one complained about a lack of AI vehicle because people used croc , now you don't see crocs because who would take a croc if you can use t17

I cant remember a time when people didnt complain how much the sherman croc sucked.

Its a slowish (for what its used for) short ranged pile of shite, the only upside is its armour which is useless if you cant get close enough to use it against its desired targets support weapons/emplacements/inf.

Tbh i now play axis just as much as allies now and i most definatly disagree with the OP, there is nuthing OP about the T-17 since its nerfs i would sooner take a puma atm.

The T-17 is no more anoying then the M8 which is again not OP.

[shockcoil]

I cant remember a time when people didnt complain how much the sherman croc sucked.

Its a slowish (for what its used for) short ranged pile of shite, the only upside is its armour which is useless if you cant get close enough to use it against its desired targets support weapons/emplacements/inf.

Tbh i now play axis just as much as allies now and i most definatly disagree with the OP, there is nuthing OP about the T-17 since its nerfs i would sooner take a puma atm.

The T-17 is no more anoying then the M8 which is again not OP.

Sherman croc was awesome, still is awesome and will forever be awesome. It's a shame no one uses them anymore. For what it's worth I do remember a time when complained how it was OP

[105TigerHunters]

Sherman croc was awesome, still is awesome and will forever be awesome. It's a shame no one uses them anymore. For what it's worth I do remember a time when complained how it was OP

Ill try not to derail the topic but if its so awsome, why is there litteraly a handful people who bother to use them, and the people i do know who use them, use them as distractions.

The age old war of IST vs Croc, i love the IST its god like.

The only way i could see the T-17 being better (not OP) is its quite fast, but with out pulling up the stats i have no idea what the puma vs t-17 stats are so thats debateable.

[Mysthalin]

Nugnug - you are NOT providing any sort of proof to any of your claims, which was my point. Right now all you're screaming is "It was OP in vCoH because Relic wanted it to be OP, therefore it is OP now". Start providing proper arguments - stats, replays, whatever.

Not restating "I think so therefore true nerf now" 20 times over - because we can restate "It's perfectly fine leave as is" 20 times over just the same way, and someone may just as well restate "It's UP as shit, reduce cost to 5 FU" 20 times over.

That is going to get us nowhere. Facts and figures, or replays and screenshots please.

[shockcoil]

I don't know why no one uses crocs, I blame it on ignorance. Just because the IST is god like and awesome (which it is) does not mean the croc is shit.

Anyway yeah back on topic. Nothing should be removed. That;s just lazy solution

[Hicks58]

I don't know why no one uses crocs, I blame it on ignorance. Just because the IST is god like and awesome (which it is) does not mean the croc is shit.

Anyway yeah back on topic. Nothing should be removed. That;s just lazy solution

People generally don't use the Croc that often due to the fact it is singularly anti-infantry. 205 fuel's worth of pure anti-infantry at that. For the same amount of fuel you can get almost 3 M8's which will do the same job as effectively and be a light vehicle counter to boot.

[shockcoil]

Yeah but 3 m8s is 24 pop. 1 croc has roughly the same anti-inf power at 10 pop and has the added bonus of being better as an aggressive weapon owing to it's sherman armour and health.

[Mysthalin]

Yeah but 3 m8s is 24 pop. 1 croc has roughly the same anti-inf power at 10 pop and has the added bonus of being better as an aggressive weapon owing to it's sherman armour and health.

Cherchel armer. No real reason for it NOT to have the dozer la.

[AmPM]

Ah, but the downside is, for half the people using it the M8's also cap, they provide redundancy as well as more utility with mines and light AT.

[tank130]

and M8's lay awesome mines

[AmPM]

WTB Skin of M8 mine that looks like an egg, then Yellow chicken skin for M8...

[Spartan_Marine88]

I love m8's



I want this variant available

[brn4meplz]

Cherchel armer. No real reason for it NOT to have the dozer la.

Stop saying that you'll confuse people. whoever made that change left it as a self canceling change

[23down]

Nug, ive seen you use PE armored cars in the exact same role that T17s are used by armored players.

Sniping infantry and decrewing AT guns.

The only difference is that PE ACs are more fragile and by association, more spammable, allowing you to put more firepower out for cost.

Why dont we remove the PE AC as well? It follows the exact same role, preforms the exact same funciton, an AI light vehicle. Just because the T17 is a tad beefier is no reason to remove it since it's been constantly nerfed, it's fine.

Bring more AT or a P4 for christ sakes.

Increase in T17 + M8 usage is only a direct result of so much fucking Assault grenade spammage that has been permeating the metagame lately.

Wow when I read such a post groundfire I begin to ask myself if you're actually capable of fulfilling general duties in a balance team.

Anyway like you I think no unit should be deleted. However I completey disagree with your opinion regarding the T17. Right now it is heavily overpowered.

It is so fast you can't catch up with it. It's weapon range is also very long. Not to the mention the precise accuracy of that vehicle.

I've played many games now (over 200) and since the latest doctrine patch it seems there are many allied players (every day more of them) going for that kind of spam. While I'm sure you guys had the best intentions to reduce the spam by the germans with that it just had the opposide effect.

We're now seeing a lot of T17 spam combined with M8s they are nearly unstoppable. Even for the best players out there. German infantry doesn't stand a chance anymore even marders (unless you have like 4 of them parked behind each other what doesn't happens often) are chanceless against those vehicles.

We were just having a game 3 vs 3 which we were clearly winning until just 4 of those units arrived at the field. They are so fast and can be nearly everywhere at the same time that they wiped us out really quick & step by step.

My recommendations therefore would be:

-Reduce the speed & rotation speed of that vehicle (just a little)
-A bit less accuracy
-maybe a little less armor for that vehicle (at some points it's actually stronger armored than tanks)

1vs1 scenario: 1 pak, or marder isn't even able to destroy just 1 of those vehicles because it's so fast it will simply flank you. and it's also unrealistic that this light vehicle can take like 3 up to 4 direct pak before it dies while the allied tanks take the same amount of damage before they die. And those are beeing classed as tanks not light vehicles.




Alternatively let it like it is right now but make it so that it can't do that much damage to vehicles and tanks (so it will remain as inf killer to keep german spam low.)
Or
Remove the repair function for that vehicle.

At the present moment this vehicle is good against anything axis have.

To come to an end I must also say I'm very disappointed that in a balance forum your balance forum I get things to read like (learn to play, oh another smurf) and other crap like that. Balance discussions should always be taken seriously otherwise there is no point in having such discussions.  

1 last point: You should maybe some day in the future consider to scrap all the balance like it is right now and start a new. So that all factions are more or less equally strong and weak.
I've played some other mods lately and those did that very well. All infs were basically vulnerable to anything as long as they were not in buildings or behind any other defences. Tanks of all kinds were able to take 2 or 3 hits at max.

Something like that makes it much more unique and also a bit more tactical. Foolish unit spam and rushes would cease to exist.  

Greetings 23-down

[Artekas]

It is so fast you can't catch up with it. It's weapon range is also very long. Not to the mention the precise accuracy of that vehicle.

It's the same speed as the M8 (6.4) and is slower than the Puma (7) and PE AC (7.5), the weapon range is the same as the weapon range of every light vehicle (40), and it has the least accuracy of any light vehicle (.45, 20mm is .5 37mm greyhound is .75). All of your arguments debunked right there, just by looking at the stats.

Also, a single ATG or a single Marder against any LV in the game will not work... nothing special about the t17 there. You're supposed to use more than one piece of anti-tank.