The Biggest Issue

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[Mysthalin]

What I find interesting:

The people who appose the cap are the most notorious for spamming. The people who think something should be done to stop it, do not spam.

What I find is interesting :

The people who want the cap are the most notorious for being shit at the game. The people who can actually play well, don't have anything against spam.

[Unkn0wn]

That wasn't exactly the most diplomatic way of getting your point across.

[Mysthalin]

Wasn't aiming for diplomacy, having been shown none.

[spinn72]

What I find is interesting :

The people who want the cap are the most notorious for being shit at the game. The people who can actually play well, don't have anything against spam.

Very uncalled for, your skill in the game shouldn't need to be an indication of how much your opinion is worth, and especially uncalled for since Tank is one of the largest donators to this mod financially!

These guys have valid opinions, but if EIRR were to try to implement their opinion, it'd raise a whole new set of different gimmick companies and balance issues. It's not a development issue, it's a player preference, and I heavily doubt that any amount of people will be able to influence other players by saying that something is shunned upon, like Cromwells crushing inf (Well, I guess this is frowned upon, but I'm still not sure if that's just left over anger and frustration or just discouraged all together).

There are advantages of having well balanced companies, these being that you'll always be making your enemy adapt to different situations, many of which they won't be fast enough to react to, whereas gimmick/spam companies have the disadvantage of predictability. They're only as good as the player using it. Many times you see your average joe player try to spam what a top tier EIRR player spams and fail horribly (eg. the whole hotchkiss spam thing a few months back).

[tank130]

What I find is interesting :

The people who want the cap are the most notorious for being shit at the game. The people who can actually play well, don't have anything against spam.

Well now, you are just being a complete cunt now aren't you .....

[11on2d6]

Very uncalled for, your skill in the game shouldn't need to be an indication of how much your opinion is worth.

While I totaly disagree with the way Myst phrased his comment and I do consider it very rude.

However I also find your statement slightly rediculous, while not as series it is akin to saying my opinion has equivilant worth to that of a CEO of bank in regards to financial issues, whether or not he might be more experienced and simply better at dealing with such things compared to me. If someone is better at something, and they have a greater understanding and proficiency then yes, their opinions in regards to that something, are more valid. Whether or not that is the case here, I dont know, i am after all new to the mod.

Just something to keep in mind.

[shockcoil]

Well no doubt Mysthalin was being a bit of a bitch but considering the amount of abuse you've given him (directly and indirectly) I'd say it's not entirely uncalled for.

[tank130]

Well no doubt Mysthalin was being a bit of a bitch but considering the amount of abuse you've given him (directly and indirectly) I'd say it's not entirely uncalled for.

This is an interesting statement. What direct and indirect abuse would you be talking about.

I strongly dislike people who are only capable of wining a game with gimmicks. I can honestly say in the 4 or so years I have been here, I have played Mysthalin about 3 times. Unless he was smurfing and I am unaware. I truly have no idea if he has a smurf account or not. I honestly can't remember if he runs a gimmick company or if he spams.

If he is offended by my criticism of people who spam or run gimmicks, then I would have to assume he is one of those people.

The only time I can recollect a personal debate between us was in regards to running a business. At that time I made it very clear he has very little knowledge in that field.


BUT, BACK ON TOPIC

We have caps on some units in the mod already. There was a lot of QQ at that time and the same group of people QQ that it would break the game. It has not broke the game, and in fact has improved overall game play. It once again encouraged players to use skill versus insta win gimmicks.

Some here are trying to dress up spam as things like " it's freedom of creativity", or "it's more fun". Spam for the most part is only fun to the person griefing others with it. Sure we can all build counter spam companies, but think about the over all impracticality of that:

Here's the truth to most of the theory crafting being posted here:
Player A spams some dumbass gimmick
Player B bitches on forums.
Player C armchair quarterbacks and says build counter spam.
Player B reluctantly tries counter spam. But now can only play against player A spam company because player B counter spam is useless against anything else.

Oh wow, this is soooo much fun.

[Mysthalin]

Key difference in Player A's and Player B's spams.

Player A's spam is effective against everything, except one very specific build.
Player B's spam is useless versus everything, except one very specific build.

Player A's spam is an efficient company following a certain theme.
Player B's spam is an inefficient gimmick, designed to work under very specific circumstances.

Now, disregarding player A's spam actually being OP (balance issue and should be fixed) the reason why he wins is because he outplays his opponents via more effective unit combinations and/or (in most cases) superior micro. Indicating a good player.

Player B is clearly reliant entirely upon knowing what the enemy will be doing in advance before he can achieve anything, putting forward the assumption that either his company builds are inefficient at multi-tasking, or he just can't use his units in general. Both of these things are indications of a crappy player.

Therefore Player A = good, Player B = crap.

[RoyalHants]

DUDE being able to spam and win does not make you good player
Me for example i suck but i spammed a few times and it was pretty much an easy win

[Smokaz]

Since when was it not skill to build a good company? It seems to me that a lot of the game ingame is dependant on your :p selections in the launcher. Yes! You built a good company. It's totally cheese spam of OP combinations. But objectively the choices were good. The guy who picked a lot of crappy units out of general expectations and "ideals" of how it should work - not so good. His company ended up sucking. I guess the other guy is to blame for knowing the game and making choices good for him. Bad guy! Why dont you buy more hotchkiss stuka? I am dissapoint!

[RoyalHants]

Why dont you buy more hotchkiss stuka? I am dissapoint!

cos i play brits 

[Unkn0wn]

Technically if you build a 'balanced company', you build a company that is designed to face even the most extremes. (For example double medium tank starts in R+, certain infantry/vehicle heavy strategies, etc)

Although I do agree there's some scenarios in which your balanced company can get outplayed by a specific gimmick.

[tank130]

Key difference in Player A's and Player B's spams.

Player A's spam is effective against everything, except one very specific build.
Player B's spam is useless versus everything, except one very specific build.

Player A's spam is an efficient company following a certain theme.
Player B's spam is an inefficient gimmick, designed to work under very specific circumstances.

Now, disregarding player A's spam actually being OP (balance issue and should be fixed) the reason why he wins is because he outplays his opponents via more effective unit combinations and/or (in most cases) superior micro. Indicating a good player.

Player B is clearly reliant entirely upon knowing what the enemy will be doing in advance before he can achieve anything, putting forward the assumption that either his company builds are inefficient at multi-tasking, or he just can't use his units in general. Both of these things are indications of a crappy player.

Therefore Player A = good, Player B = crap.

Congratulations!!!! you are almost getting it now.....

Building a counter spam company is bad play. You could not be more wrong in assuming building counter spam companies are done by crappy players. In fact, I have often seen some of our top players build a counter spam company.

Once again, you are correct that building a counter spam means that player B has to know what he is countering. This of course would only be the case if player A continues to keep doing the same thing. So once again, suggesting building a counter spam company is not the answer to the problem.

"Now, disregarding player A's spam actually being OP (balance issue and should be fixed) the reason why he wins is because he outplays his opponents via more effective unit combinations and/or (in most cases) superior micro. Indicating a good player."

Now you are bordering on delusional.... Spam does not require superior micro. Spam is NOT unit combination. Spam is a ridiculous amount of one or two units. I find it laughable that you would even use the words unit combination and micro to describe spam.

Something else I think needs to be addressed. You seem to be of the opinion I suck as a player. I often say myself I suck as I have absolutely no respect for people who brag about their abilities. I down play my abilities as I prefer it that way. However, I would never claim to be one of the top players here, but I far from suck. Perhaps you have beaten me in the past with your gimmick companies, but that does not make you a better player. It just makes you better at gimmicks; something I would never be proud of, but if it gives you the positive reinforcement you crave, so be it.

[Mysthalin]

I'll go deadbolt on you with this one.

No u and l2p.

[tank130]

I'll go deadbolt on you with this one.

No u and l2p.

ROFLMAO

[Killer344]

BUT, BACK ON TOPIC

We have caps on some units in the mod already. There was a lot of QQ at that time and the same group of people QQ that it would break the game. It has not broke the game, and in fact has improved overall game play. It once again encouraged players to use skill versus insta win gimmicks.

We did have individual caps, (it was the first availability system at EiR:R) but then it was replaced by what we have enough. It turned the game into a pos, after 2 months everyone got tired of playing vs the same stuff endlessly.

The only units that have caps atm are heavy tanks and super heavy tanks. I'm pretty sure almost nobody QQ'd about that change.....

[Mysthalin]

Indeed, NOBODY liked the individual caps.

[tank130]

Well here's the issue:

If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you have always got.

So currently we have a mod that is just slightly more alive than dead.
We are unable to maintain a new player base; that is to say they come, but quickly depart.
The war map will create a surge of new players and return of old players; for a short while.

So the real core issues that plague the mod are: stacking / stomping and grief companies.

More often that not (I will not say always) a spam company is a grief company. So what do you all propose we do to limit the ability to grief other players.

Of course we could all just do what we have always done; sit on our asses, let the spammers do their thing, watch the new players leave in disgust and watch the mod slowly fade away as Mysthalin sits in the launcher by himself waiting for one lonely sole to show up for a game......

Or, we could recognize the issue, correct it and let this mod grow to it's full potential while weeding out the undesirables that ruin it. (I am not suggesting Mysthalin is an undesirable or he is ruining the mod; I mean than sincerely).

Killer: imo, the cap system you had ages ago was not balanced correctly. As well, correct me if I am wrong, we did not have doctrines back then. With out any doctrine abilities, most of the spam companies fail (I will not say always).

I have said this before, but I will say it again. I am not proposing ridiculous caps that greatly reduces a players ability to be unique and creative, but there has to be a limit put on the complete stupidity of some of the players in this community. Having the ability to run nothing but rifles and atg's is completely fucked up. Eliminating these kinds of builds does not eliminate a players ability to be unique and creative, it eliminates there abilities to grief the majority if the community.

There is a very small percentage of the community that abuse this kind of thing. We should not be catering to their needs just because they are the most vocal in their responses.

It is simple to say "just avoid those players" but in a community this small, it is difficult to just avoid a player with out avoiding playing at all. If you reduce a players ability to grief, stack or stomp; your player base will grow.

[Unkn0wn]

I'm not entirely sure new players are leaving the mod because of 'grief' and 'spam' companies. What is offered in EIR is a lot less worse than your average vCOH so by comparison we're miles ahead.

That stomping/stacking drives away new players is certainly more likely.
(As well as skill level discrepancy, account level discrepancy and game accessibility and wait times)