[CW] Staghound - Underpriced?

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[8thRifleRegiment]

lmao really Leo? i think it was fine with just brits with Boys

[Groundfire]

Actually Pumas are extinct because of all the allied handheld that rapes it now.

Go look at the puma leaderboard. Pumaballers like me, elite and Jinker used to have some dominating vet 3 pumas there..

Now.. the highest vetted puma is vet 1.

Fix phase armor for everyone and then it will be acceptable to go back to only stickies and ATGs.

[LeoPhone]

lmao really Leo? i think it was fine with just brits with Boys

thats what im saying.

[Smokaz]

Fix phase armor for everyone and then it will be acceptable to go back to only stickies and ATGs.

Since when was puma offense good enough to justify this nerf to its surviability?

[Hicks58]

Tbh it's quite nice having an on hand counter to Flak 88's.

Boyz AT rifles are really quite versatile tools.

[Tymathee]

Oh noes...remove stags cuz you can spam 8 of them!
you can do the same with m8s, which are far more effective at taking on tanks than stags and get better doctrine buffs
t-17s are much better at killing infantry
If I start with 3 50mm pumas i can rape with those as well

so, if the benchmark that something is OP because if you field a lot of them they "can" not "will" rape then you may as well say p4s are OP cuz if u start 2 u "can" rape a starting call in, same with Stuarts, hotchkiss, Shermans, p4 ists, etc etc.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Oh noes...remove stags cuz you can spam 8 of them!
you can do the same with m8s, which are far more effective at taking on tanks than stags and get better doctrine buffs
t-17s are much better at killing infantry
If I start with 3 50mm pumas i can rape with those as well

so, if the benchmark that something is OP because if you field a lot of them they "can" not "will" rape then you may as well say p4s are OP cuz if u start 2 u "can" rape a starting call in, same with Stuarts, hotchkiss, Shermans, p4 ists, etc etc.

don't foget unupgraded rifles and volks

[Tymathee]

oh yeah, spam volks with mp40's, assault nades and fausts with med kits, Volks are OP!

[Malgoroth]

What is it you people don't grasp? Stags and T-17's kill infantry and support weapons too quickly. They are too good for their cost. Yes, mines make M8's good and versatile units, but they are not OP. They don't outright kill nearly as effectively as their ToV counterparts do, and there are cost effective counters available (Pak and handheld AT + minesweeper pio). Stags and T-17s on the other hand don't have cost effective counters. The only real way to balance those units is to increase their price dramatically to reflect the dramatic damage the can do in relatively short order in game.

I notice the distinct lack of an effective counter argument. Instead I see the childish dismissal of my own arguments as whining, and the obnoxious mockery of my use of a common internet abbreviation... is that seriously your basis for a defense? If so, then the debate is over. You lose.  

An aside: You don't win the game by "hanging back" with a P4. Leaving the initiative to your opponent is a terrible idea in game.

[Artekas]

Why do you consider a PaK + handheld AT good enough to cost effectively deal with M8s but not with Stags and T17s? I find that all of them die pretty easily to it, speaking from the Wehrmacht perspective. In fact I rather fight them because they don't have M8 mines, which force me to call on a minesweeper squad which adds to my callin timer for future callins.

[Malgoroth]

Why do you consider a PaK + handheld AT good enough to cost effectively deal with M8s but not with Stags and T17s? I find that all of them die pretty easily to it, speaking from the Wehrmacht perspective. In fact I rather fight them because they don't have M8 mines, which force me to call on a minesweeper squad which adds to my callin timer for future callins.

I went over why... M8s don't kill the AT gun and shreck infantry nearly as effectively as stags/T17's. They don't have that kind of damage output. AT gun and shreck is a good enough deterrent from them rushing your shit. They do their job if you use them well, which I have no issue with. I hate M8s like I hate all things allied, but they aren't OP.

M8 mines are vicious, no doubt. But it's not a stretch to guess where they were laid and either avoid those areas till they are cleared, or straight up mortar them to kill the mine.

Actually, one of my favorite tactics when I have infantry close enough to pull it off, is to rush something unimportant like a pio at the M8 while it's laying the mine to detonate the shit right as the M8 finishes. Take that you mine laying bastard.

[Tymathee]

...i didn't even mention m8 mines, play mountain man's m8 spam company and see how much you hate m8s after that.

btw, are you also considering possible stag buffs? the stag can get some good buffs with rca and the scatter shot with cmdos

btw m8s are also quite cheaper
35 mu 50 cal
25 for repair

and the stag
50 mu 50cal
30 for repair

[Artekas]

Eh, don't really want to get into an argument over the cost effectiveness of a PaK + grenadier squad against any of these LVs. I have never seen anyone foolhardy enough to charge into me like that, stags or not, and if you add in more factors that enable the LVs to come in (such as another vehicle is distracting the anti-tank and then they come in from a flank and kill them too fast for cost or whatever)  it becomes a theorycrafting nightmare.

I have a fun story about using M8 mines against the enemy though, I saw them plant it but my minesweeper died trying to defuse it (and I'm too cheap for multiple minesweepers) and the fighting left that area for a while. Come back to it 15 minutes later, that M8 is still alive, I'm doing a flanking move with some schrecks to knock out an ATG, the m8 comes calling and I chase it around the corner of a building and fire, right as it moves behind the mine it planted earlier. Schreck misses, scatters right into the mine, M8 and some infantry dies. Was really satisfying.

[Malgoroth]

...i didn't even mention m8 mines, play mountain man's m8 spam company and see how much you hate m8s after that.

btw, are you also considering possible stag buffs? the stag can get some good buffs with rca and the scatter shot with cmdos

btw m8s are also quite cheaper
35 mu 50 cal
25 for repair

and the stag
50 mu 50cal
30 for repair

I have played against Mountain Mans M8 company. And I've played against people trying to emulate it. M8 spam only seems like a maybe issue the smaller the game is. Like a 2v2. 3v3's and up, when there's more AT assets on the field, it doesn't seem to work as well as far as I can see. Still not the level of BS stags and T-17's are.

And just because it's already more expensive than an M8 doesn't mean it shouldn't be MORE expensive. I generally see stags do much more damage than an M8 anyway.

How about this for a happy compromise? Let the allies play with their LVs from hell. Even give the T-17 that BS stun shot back... In exchange, you increase the shrecks accuracy back to where it was before relic fucked it over in that patch back in the day. The one that spawned that awesome Hitler video with the re-done subtitles from Downfall. (Total wishful thinking... but I do miss those shrecks)

 

[Heartmann]

yep, giving boys at rifles to every doctrine was a bad idea...

+ 1

[Scotzmen]

At guns arnt on every doctrine, second of all it stops you Axis spamming those scout cars and light vehicals taht rape infantry. Just give us a good counter.

You shoud use some, sometime there really handy.

[NightRain]

At guns arnt on every doctrine, second of all it stops you Axis spamming those scout cars and light vehicals taht rape infantry. Just give us a good counter.

You shoud use some, sometime there really handy.

What ya talkin' about? Every faction gets its own ATG besides PE that has to rely on marders and 50mms.

[Artekas]

I think he meant Boys AT.

[Tymathee]

armor is seriously OP right now.

and i play against stags and t-17s as well as with them and because i've been on both sides i know how to use them and counter them, i rarely have a problem with them. You ALAWYS needto have at least two types of AT on the field at all time, be it tank/schreck, tank/faust, tank/pak, pak/schreck etc so u dont get raped by light vehicles.

the allies have to do the same so they dont get raped by axis tanks and light vehicles. i'd love for u to play as brits vs a stormtrooper blitz company and see how strong schrecks still are.

heck, the reason their accuracy was lowred was because they're ridiculously powerful at 120 dmg per, btw, zooks are even more horrible and even more horrible than that are piats. Schrecks are on every axis doctrine and are still quite feared by any allied player

but anyway, Malgorth cant be convinced cuz well he got raped by light vehicles and refuses to change his company composition to counter it, rather he wants changes. :sigh:

btw, when i play axis i rarely see that many stags, i see more m8s. but ef it im done.

[Malgoroth]

armor is seriously OP right now.

and i play against stags and t-17s as well as with them and because i've been on both sides i know how to use them and counter them, i rarely have a problem with them. You ALAWYS needto have at least two types of AT on the field at all time, be it tank/schreck, tank/faust, tank/pak, pak/schreck etc so u dont get raped by light vehicles.

the allies have to do the same so they dont get raped by axis tanks and light vehicles. i'd love for u to play as brits vs a stormtrooper blitz company and see how strong schrecks still are.

heck, the reason their accuracy was lowred was because they're ridiculously powerful at 120 dmg per, btw, zooks are even more horrible and even more horrible than that are piats. Schrecks are on every axis doctrine and are still quite feared by any allied player

but anyway, Malgorth cant be convinced cuz well he got raped by light vehicles and refuses to change his company composition to counter it, rather he wants changes. :sigh:

btw, when i play axis i rarely see that many stags, i see more m8s. but ef it im done.

Tym... where's your reading comprehension, man? You seem well read enough. I've already gone over in this thread why tanks don't make good counters and why ATGs fail miserably. Tanks don't do enough damage to the things and ATGs MAYBE get one shot off before they're surrounded/flanked. After it's dead, the Stags make their speedy little getaway. And where the shit do you get off bringing up allied hand-held AT? What's that got to do with a damn thing? Are you trying desperately to counter my sarcastic suggestion that we up shreck accuracy?

Also, what would you know of my company? Are you an e-psychic? I've tried shrecks to minimal effect. They have to stay in cover or else they get kited and annihilated. While in cover they're sitting ducks for mortars and artillery. The only exception is when they're in inf HTs, in which case they're awesome if the stag isn't supported. ATG spam is a resource drain and they're easily de-crewed by the things, plus they lack the mobility required to counter faster vehicles. Tanks don't do enough damage to them before they get away AND are an expensive counter for a LV. Even if the tanks ward them off, it'll be after they've sustained damage and quite possibly spent a repair. I've tried P4 spam. P4's and Panthers, JUST Panthers (bad idea. 15 pop just to counter the rascals) and none worked nearly well enough. The only thing I haven't tried are Ostwinds because the added anti-infantry would be redundant in my company. That's a valuable AT asset you won't have for when your opponents tanks come on the field. Volks with fausts are laughable. Mines usually only hit enemy infantry unless you spam them ridiculously, and spam is something I try my damnedest to avoid. Unlike people like you, I care if I win through some bullshit means. It's not a victory, it's an insult to the other player. It's a virtual 'NYEH NYEH! YOU CAN'T GET ME!' and it's not fun for anybody.

Consistently, you ignore the fact that Stags will be supported. Through ATGs on their own side, AT infantry, MGs or brit artillery like foo which stomp the Christ out of less-than-mobile support weapons including ATGs. No unit in EIR exists in a vacuum. No unit will ever go 1v1 with another unit. Units compliment each other and combinations of units are what you use to win the battle. It's never JUST stags as it appears you think I'm saying. Stags as they exist presently are a force multiplier which perform far far to well for their cost. They assassinate support weapons paving the way for other units and unless some unfortunate stroke of luck intervenes, they WILL make it out alive. Nothing you say will change that fact. I've seen it in so many games. I've heard others vent the same frustration. In this game environment, they are simply. too. powerful.

Admit it. Quit being one of those people and just admit it.