The Hotchkiss is UP

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[11on2d6]

The Hotchkiss, specificly the 50mm version, is UP in comparison to other AT light vehicles.

It costs 310 mp, 70 fuel and takes up 8 pop.

It is a dedicated anti vehicle unit, so its closest points of comparison are probably the stuart ( in its EIR iteration) and the Puma Upgun.

The stuart is 280mp, 80 fuel and also takes 8 pop. So its very slightly cheaper. There are a few more differences to consider, in a direct comparison not to mention the huge variety of infactional differences and doctrine buffs available.

For reference the wher upgunned puma is 280 mp and 70 fuel.

The stuarts gun has the same accuracy, a longer reload and very slightly less damage, however it also has a 50% damage modifer against a lot of lightly armoured PE targets ( the main targers for these sort of vehicles). So considering this, the units are probably fairly balanced in comparison with eachother, the short comings of the stuart in comparison to the hotchkiss counteracted by the 50% damage modifer, a not insignificant number.

However the stuart has 1 thing the Hotchkiss does not have, m8 armour. What does this mean? it means it can dodge bullets, it gets hit a lot less than other vehicles due to the significant incoming accuracy modifier present. The puma and the m8 also have this, as does the PE armoured car, and the tetrach, the only light vehicles in the game that do not have "dodge" are the Hotchkiss and the staghound. The stag hound has a staggering amount of firepower on a small and nimble platform and significantly more HP than the hotchkiss ( cant find the numbers in corsix, assisstence appreciated.)

In vcoh the stuart does not "dodge", however it was added in EIR to make the stuart a more useful unit. I think this should also be done to the PE upgunned Hotchkiss.

*needs coroboration with corsix, cant find actual info atm*- keep in mind the hotchkiss is slower than the other light vehicles to begin with and that a large part of these units power comes from their mobility. 


thoughts?

[Illegal_Carrot]

(Gonna look up the Corsix stuff in a bit)

But yeah, the Hotch is pretty pathetic. It's got Stuart armor, light vehicle crits and low HP, making it a near useless PoS. The 50mm has a nice DPS, but since it's penetration was reduced, it's become even more of a joke. Some people bitch about it being super-OP, but not once have I seen anything of the sort. Giving it some sort of moving dodge bonuses would be nice, just like any other armored car.

[Artekas]

I'd also like to point out that the 50mm used by the Puma is more accurate against infantry. I cba to look in the RGDs right now, but the Stuart probably is too.

However, there are some things that you didn't mention that are in the Hotchkiss' favour. The Hotchkiss has significantly better penetration which makes it better at engaging tanks, and the Hotchkiss has a 5 range advantage. Not to mention the Stuart doesn't get the damage modifier against actual tanks afaik (again, cba to look it up). The Stuart is more suited to fighting light vehicles while the Hotchkiss is more suited to fighting heavier vehicles. I think that adding M8 dodge to the Hotchkiss might make it too powerful.

[11on2d6]

The upgunned hotchkiss used to have a role in the PE arsenal, pershing hunter. It was the steve erwin of heavy tank hunting, but penetration values that allowed it to rape pershings have been reduced ( rightly so), however this unit is now rather weak imo, esp in comparison to the other factions light vehicles.


Just looked it up, you are correct.

The hotchkiss has +5 range over the puma and stuart. This would make the unit more suited for kiting. In regards to penetration I dont think you are correct, with the upgunned hotchkiss having very similar penetration values to that of the stuart. The stuart gets a 50% damage bonus vs the Marder and PE halftrack armour. (1/3 of units available to PE, and the basis of almost all their anti tank).

its has the worst accuracy against infantry than all the anti tank light vehicles, the wher puma having rather off values vs solider armour iirc.

I dont really see how putting the units survivability on par with the puma, m8, stuart, or t17 could really make it too powerful, sure these units are a pain and hard to deal with... but people see t17's and they scrable their infantry into cover and start desperatly searching for a mobile at source to deal with it... hotchkiss should invoke a similar reaction for tanks imo.


Hotchkiss also have 300 hp iirc ( dont know where to find in corsix), which is less than any of the other light vehicles I think. To put that in perspective an m10 that does 112 damage will 3 shot a hotchkiss without fail, and will probably not miss either since hotch has no dodge and the units are the same speed ( again dont know where to find values in corsix).
BTW the reason im discussing the upgunned hotchkiss and not all hotchkiss is that I havent had a chance to try the regular hotchkiss at 6 pop, significantly less than the other light vehicles so it might actually be OK.


Is there a reason why the hotch does not recieve the dodge that most of the other light vehicles get?

[Artekas]

I'd love if somebody could provide actual values because I am far too lazy right now, but the 50mm Puma doesn't compare with the 50mm Hotchkiss in penetration, and I'm sure the Stuart is the same way.

[11on2d6]

                            Short range             Medium Range             Long Range


Upgunned Hotch            100%                   100%                         90%

Upgunned Puma            100%                     90%                          80%

Stuart                         100%                     90%                          80%


These are the figures from "penetration" under each units weapon entry, however i get the feeling they paint a too simplistic picture of ingame mechanics, since I know the penetration differers depending on the target as well.  Take with a grain of salt.


Arteka's while I udnerstand you think the dodge would be too much for the upgunned hotch, do you think the hotch is ok as it is? if not what other suggestions would you have for fixing it? pop/price reduction perhaps?

[Artekas]

Those are basically irrelevant, target table modifiers are far more important. For the most relevant comparison it's a good idea to look at the Stuart's penetration against P4s and Tigers and compare it with the Hotchkiss' penetration against Shermans and Pershings. It's not the most perfect comparisons but it works and gives you a good idea of how good the penetration is.

I think that the 50mm Hotchkiss is balanced against other light vehicles fine right now. The only thing I would like to see changed is the pop reduced to 7, however if this were to happen I would also like to see the Stuart and 50mm Puma pop reduced to 7 as well. I feel that 8 is too much for what they do, when an M10 is just 10 pop while having a much better cannon, 45 range, better speed, and similar performance against infantry. The prices are fine in relation to this but the pop values are a bit skewed.

[11on2d6]

I dont know how to do that, sum1 help .

Also im surprised you would advocate going after tanks with the upgunned hotchkiss, its 75 damage is very low to be trying to combat a tank with, its 300 hp doesnt help either, meaning most tanks kill it in 3 and cripple it in 2 hits.

So try to help me understand your POV, because the hotch is better against tanks than the other light at vehivles it doesnt need dodge and is fine?

[Killer344]

It has +5 more range than most tanks and it's faster.... remember?

P4s/Shermans do 87 damage per shot so what's wrong with a light vehicle doing 75?

[Artekas]

Damage alone is irrelevant, accuracy, penetration, and rate of fire are all also quite important. In this case it is the Hotchkiss' great rate of fire and penetration that makes it viable for fighting tanks, combined with the 45 range. They will not singlehandedly take down a medium tank, no, but for their cost they do a great job.

Under the weapons table look for target table modifiers somewhere, open that and look for the armour types (p4, sherman, etc) click on them and it'll show you the various modifiers against them, including penetration modifier.

And yes, because the cost is basically the same as other LV, while it has much better performance against tanks even though it's not as fast, I think that it is fine.

[11on2d6]

I assume your implying that the proper way to use the unit is the kite enemy armour in an attept to nickle and dime it to death from the safty of +5 range away? I guess it could work, difficult due to having less sight than range but with proper support it is possible. I will give it a try in my next game, but I dont see it being very feasible due to the low damage and very low room for error thhe hotch provides. Would seem to require a disproptionate amount of skill to use properly in comparison to other light armour.
Where in comparison ive seen people with t17's driving infront of tanks/ at guns and dodge left right and centre.

Just saying.


also a less point but one I did mean to mention is that it lacks options compared to the allied light vehicles, the m8 has access to amazing mines, the stuart has a commander ugrade for increased LOS. The commander upgrade would be a great boon for the upgunned hotch, allowing it to actually use its range advantage.
I dunno...maybe your right, I guess it just annoys me slightly that its about the same MP cost as an m10, 2 less pop and so much worse. In every way. guess thats whay you save 110 fuel...

What if the unit price was increased as well as the unit being improved somewhat... I just struggle to see it as an 8 pop ( a fairly large amount) anti tank support peice.

[Demon767]

HELLO!?

There used to support Marders and 50mms. the 360turret counters circle strafing mainly from the usually culprits Stags and T17s. BLOCK THE LV than your marder blows the shit out of them. although i do want to see a mp reduction.

[Artekas]

Trying to kite an enemy to death is not likely to work, they are not afraid of charging after you and the 5 range is a rather small margin. Still, it is an advantage that you can use to get an extra shot off here and there without them being able to retaliate. You need something like an M10, where they are afraid of committing to a charge, for 45 range to be enough to kite something to death. You will want to try and abuse the 5 range as much as possible but it's extremely unlikely that you will manage to actually take down a Sherman with just one  Hotchkiss and no other supplemental AT by kiting.

I'm against the idea of buffing it and increasing the cost too, again I think the only change that should be made is reducing these three vehicles to 7 pop. I wouldn't be against a 30 MP reduction, but I don't think it's necessary or will make a difference either.

[11on2d6]

in that case im going to say 8 pop is far too much for a AT supplement, when an m10 is 10 pop and is a brilliant standalone At peice. This in a faction who's version of the ATG, the marder, is 50% more pop than everyone elses atg ( I know it can move, but its still the role it plays overall)

All the other lightarmour has a specific role it fulfills very well, the hotchkiss does not imol.

The stuart is a brilliant tool against PE light armour, 3 shotting most of it in a rather disgusting fashion. The Upgunned puma seems to exsist mostly to deter m8's and t17's, since those two units dont kill it too fast and it doesnt kill them quickly either, they tend to jsut scare eachother away.  A necessary role for axis considering how devestating those two units are to axis infantry.

The upgunned hotchkiss can support axis tanks in engagements against allied ones, however due it having the lowest health of the light vehicles, getitng hit more and being 8 pop ( not far off just getting another bloody tank on field for that) I dont think it fulfills its role.

While not the most accurate measure of how many are being used, looking at the leaderboards does give a rough indication of how many upgunned hotchkiss's are currently being used.

There are 13 stuarts, 29 greyhounds, 7 upgunned hotchkiss. ( actually more than i expected tbh, since I havent seen anyone else use them in game since I got back into EIR).

[Artekas]

The Hotchkiss, if anything, has a more specific role than the 50mm Puma, which is less effective against armour and vehicles and more effective against infantry, making it more general purpose.

[11on2d6]

Ok I see your point, I think I didnt express myself clearly. You can look at the upgunned puma and look at a situation and say, Yes, this is the unit to deal with this problem. It could be unsupported capping infantry, it could be other light vehcles. What situation do people pull upgunned hotchkiss's on for? All I know is I see them VERY rarely, they make the flammen look popular in comparison.

Normaly when a unit isnt used much is their its too hard for most people to use effectly ( is that ok?) or its simply not effective... either of these means the unit is worth looking into imo.

Im honestly surprised...I expected more people to feel this way about the hotchkiss than jsut me. No one? really?

[Illegal_Carrot]

I'm against the idea of buffing it and increasing the cost too, again I think the only change that should be made is reducing these three vehicles to 7 pop. I wouldn't be against a 30 MP reduction, but I don't think it's necessary or will make a difference either.

+1 to this

If 50mms are 4 pop and Marders are 6, why is the Hotch Upgun a whopping 8? I think it's priced fairly enough, but it's difficult to call onto the field when you need AT support due to its high pop, and there are much more pop-effective units out there.

I run one of these in my company, to support and supplement my other AT units, and it rarely pays off. If you're supporting a Marder/50mm (like you're supposed to) then your range and speed mean very little. And the fact that the thing is a magnet for all kinds of AT fire means it goes down too quickly, having done too little.

Or, as I said before, as dodge bonus would be nice. It wouldn't give the Hotch super-duper warp fields or anything, but would allow the thing to survive without getting hit 100% of the time.

[Artekas]

I see the 50mm Hotchkiss decently often, and used them myself quite a bit when I was still playing PE. You can do exactly the same thing with the Hotchkiss as you say you can with the Puma... okay, I need some extra AT to take down this tank, I will call a Hotchkiss in. I need to deal with this LV, I will call a Hotchkiss in.

The big thing is (about your point on not seeing too many hotchkiss), is that while 50mm Hotchkiss aren't super popular... neither are the Stuart or 50mm Puma. I see the 50mm Puma and Hotchkiss at more or less the same frequency, and I actually see less Stuarts.

[11on2d6]

The big thing is (about your point on not seeing too many hotchkiss), is that while 50mm Hotchkiss aren't super popular... neither are the Stuart or 50mm Puma. I see the 50mm Puma and Hotchkiss at more or less the same frequency, and I actually see less Stuarts.

In that case perhaps I was wrong? Perhaps its not just the Upgunned hotchkiss with an issue but all of these light anti tank units simply being underwhleming.


Though tbh I see the stuart quite a bit, maybe I notice more cause this issue of light vehciles has been bothering me for a while.

Do you think it would be an issue if these things were reduced to 6 or 7 pop? would be see mobs of them bringing down tanks? ( would that be a problem?)

[Artekas]

All of these vehicles are great for their cost, but the fact is that they fill up a niche role (not being very powerful anti-tank, nor being reliable anti-infantry) where the only thing they can seriously kill are light vehicles and help kill tanks, which may discourage people from using them. I don't think this is an issue at all. The other factor that does discourage people from using it, and I think actually is an issue, is their pop.

Is anyone actually against a pop decrease to 7 for the Stuart, 50mm Puma, and 50mm Hotchkiss? I've been pushing a bit for this change since.... as of today, one month ago. Haven't heard any arguments against it.