Tripple Nerfs - The Churchill Croc

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[EIRRMod]

No I wouldn't, because that analogy isn't even remotely applicable.
<snip>
Balance on the other hand is about equillibrium.

And that is what my example is attempting to show.

50 being the equillibrium point.  1 and 100 being either too low of a nerf to even be measurable, and 100 being the 'knee-jerk' reaction you are talking about.

[TheWindCriesMary]

And that is what my example is attempting to show.

50 being the equillibrium point.  1 and 100 being either too low of a nerf to even be measurable, and 100 being the 'knee-jerk' reaction you are talking about.

The problem is, though, that in this case we have no idea that 50 is the equillibrium point. There are way too many variables at play in the EiR metagame for that to be even remotely possible to foresee. It could be 2, and it could be 98. The only proper, responsible, and acceptable way to find that balance requires prudence.

 A double nerf is almost NEVER the right course of action. A Tripple nerf is outright inane.

You start with one nerf. 9 times out of 10 it will solve the problem outright. If it doesn't, you add on another responsible nerf. You observe that for an appropriate period and then you reevaluate. Rinse and repeat.

You get these kinds of looney toon tripple nerfs, however, when you have a bunch of trigger happy people who are completely unburdened by the idea that units they don't use should be approached with extra caution and restraint.

People are inherently going to abuse balancing. Without some kind of checks and balances system, you get destabilizing screw ups like this.

Balance either needs to be done with a steady hand if it's being done by a small group, or it needs to be crowdsourced by a large one. Anything else leads to stupidity.

-Wind

[Tymathee]

wind is confusing me with his colorful talk...i'm trying to understand what the heck he wants.

[panzerman]

wind is confusing me with his colorful talk...i'm trying to understand what the heck he wants.

i would go with ice man sounds desperate too lol

[Firesparks]

It's called the Chewbacca Defense

[BigDick]

so if churchil was not OP

what is in your eyes wind?

it must been that good in his eyes that he run only churchill crocs in his company
probably he can fit now 1 croc less into his company because there is some fuel missing

[Demon767]

yer his stories are like double rainbows to my eyes

[GrinningD]

wind is confusing me with his colorful talk...i'm trying to understand what the heck he wants.

He wants in on the balance advice cabinet.

Hell, I think he wants to be the balance advice cabinet.

Though I for one am not knocking you Wind, I just came back yesterday and am also greatly distraught over the nerfs to my poor delicate Crocs

[WildZontar]

Oh thank god Wind is back, now things will get done.

[spinn72]

I'm with Wind on this one in relation to a poor balance team -- I've played games with Devs or Moderators who have been smacked by abilities or certain units and have then threatened to 'nerf the shit out of it' in the next patch.

He wants in on the balance advice cabinet.

I know it's completely not my place, but putting Wind on the balance team would be a damn good decision, the man plays a lot of games and knows what to do. After chatting on vent, it seems like a lot of members who have been on the balance team get kicked out for stupid personal feuds (Or fake reasons) rather than making horrible, horrible decisions balance wise. Then again, i've only heard the one side of the story.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Multiple moderate and responsible balance changes has always been the proper way to fine-tune something, not an out-right fucking over of a certain portion of your community/content. This is pretty much game design 101, and even goes so far as to be the correct way to handle almost any experimental situation.

But the super-secret shadow balance team, that we cannot know or even hold accountable, is incompetent and rash. What else is new?

[Mysthalin]

First off - this isn't a tripple nerf, but a double nerf.
The first nerf is a price change - manpower and fuel have gone up.
The second nerf is a field presence change - a rise in it's popcap.

Now, of course you'll reply with a bunch of whining that doesn't make any sence arguing semantics, but I'm not bothered by that. All in all the price nerf is hardly even that noticeable : you only lost out on one churchil per company, and the popcap nerf is percentally not even remotely as potent as the ATG nerf just lately.

All your whinging about RSE not even being in? Well, units are meant to be balanced against each other WITHOUT doctrinal abilities, and then doctrinal abilities balanced against each other. You can't hope to efficiently control two integrated variables (doctrine ability-buffed unit balance). The Churchil has gone up in price because it's percieved effectiveness as a base has been noted as too high.

And heck, even if you were right about doctrine buffs having to have a part in unit price balance - the only thing you can logically expect to happen once RSE is in is that the croc will be nerfed again.

Lastly, subtle fine-tuning on a unit when nerfing/buffing it is only applicable if the unit isn't brokenly OP/UP in the first place. The crocodile, with it's Churchil armour, 900 HP, a main gun and the absolute best flamethrower in the game qualified as being a heavy tank far better than it ever has as a medium. Thusly, it's cost was required to go up to a more heavy-esque price level of 380 FU over 320 FU, and it's popcap just the same.

Say what you will, Wind - but to me it seems the only reason you're currently whining is because your favorite toy got nerfed. You're hardly making any more sence than Dave when the Croc first went up from 260 FU to 320 FU, as well as popcap from 12 to 13.
Sound familiar?

[Unkn0wn]

Certainly wasn't a knee-jerk reaction, it's something that was cooking for a very long time.

Also, this is the balance forum, you know the rules. I'm not going to keep repeating this Demon.

[Demon767]

seriously didnt take this thread as a balance thread. i assumed it was a relevent eir disc. oops
sorry

[TheIcelandicManiac]

I am not happy about this but i will not complane for i know when royal eng doctrine will be added noone will use them becouse they will wine about how useless it is, they will be for they dont know how to use the fucking thing.

[Smokaz]

Still viable? Viable.

For comparison over at OMG a churchill crocodile is

600 MP
500 Fuel
15 pop

For cross reference, a Panzer IV is 350 MP and 300 fuel over there.

While in EIRR, croc is: 14 pop, 500 mp and 380 fuel. P4 is 400/250 12pop.

If either mod is close to the imaginably "correct number", it still leaves the croc considerably cheaper in EiRR. Especially considering the amounts of fuel we have more in EIRR. So by the only possible standard to compare to, the EIRR croc is cheap.

So yeah, it's pretty cheap unit in EIRR. Cheap cheap cheap. Inexpensive. Bargain buy! You get tank shock, skirt like armor and the uber duber flamethrower on top of a main gun. Compare what you get on other units for the same investment. A lot less.

Back to your Theater, wind.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

you dont get tank shock unless you are using the MKIV churchill and the flamer is not nearly as usefull as it is in OMG.
or the enemey units are stronger.

[Smokaz]

they removed that? too bad, its still cheap

[TheIcelandicManiac]

allso the tankshock on the MKVI is somewhat useless , sure the crock is somewhat cheap cheap but a single panther and a atgun can take the crock on easy.(unless i am using my command tank smoke barrage that i use on 88s)

[RoyalHants]

not just that a croc is built to take damage and get rid of enemy inf considering you only have 1 repair kit unlike unlimted repairs at OMG means its either gonna die or be pulled of much earlier