True arguments for Infantry UNIT balances. No trolling...

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[TheVolskinator]

People bitch and moan about all the different OP shit related to G43s, BARs, nades, whatever. Lets look at what we have.

Argument: BARs are OP because of their high comparable DPS as opposed to the LMG42 and Bren. The addition of SF makes BARs even more of a trolling tool, and BARs should have an increase of price, and/or only 1 BAR, and no supressing fire.

Support: Admittedly BARs greatly boost the combat effectiveness of the Riflemen versus enemy infantry. It can more or less instapin even the largest of blobs, and then walk up and trollface all of them, causing a mass retreat or inflicing massive damage.

Opposition: Ok, BARs do boost the combat power of whatever squad they're on. However, some players (such as myself) use them purely for their DPS value, which riflemen desperately need as Garands get wtf pwnd by pretty much every other weapon in the game outside of 10m. In the case of bullshit spam companies such as KCH, volks, gren, AG, PG or whatever spam, BARs are much needed in keeping enemy blobs at bay. Riflemen are also some of the weakest and easily killable inf in the game.

Resolution: Why not make SF a targeted ability like G43 Slow? There are also open options of a single BAR for ~40 Munitions, dual BARs w.o SF, or a cost increase to avoid spamming the ability, in addition to making it a targeted ability and looking into other DPS-boosting options (such as the upgrade 'Improvised Firemodes' under the new inf upgrades thread in 'suggestions').

[Mgallun74]

People bitch and moan about all the different OP shit related to G43s, BARs, nades, whatever. Lets look at what we have.

Argument: BARs are OP because of their high comparable DPS as opposed to the LMG42 and Bren. The addition of SF makes BARs even more of a trolling tool, and BARs should have an increase of price, and/or only 1 BAR, and no supressing fire.

Support: Admittedly BARs greatly boost the combat effectiveness of the Riflemen versus enemy infantry. It can more or less instapin even the largest of blobs, and then walk up and trollface all of them, causing a mass retreat or inflicing massive damage.

Opposition: Ok, BARs do boost the combat power of whatever squad they're on. However, some players (such as myself) use them purely for their DPS value, which riflemen desperately need as Garands get wtf pwnd by pretty much every other weapon in the game outside of 10m. In the case of bullshit spam companies such as KCH, volks, gren, AG, PG or whatever spam, BARs are much needed in keeping enemy blobs at bay. Riflemen are also some of the weakest and easily killable inf in the game.

Resolution: Why not make SF a targeted ability like G43 Slow? There are also open options of a single BAR for ~40 Munitions, dual BARs w.o SF, or a cost increase to avoid spamming the ability, in addition to making it a targeted ability and looking into other DPS-boosting options (such as the upgrade 'Improvised Firemodes' under the new inf upgrades thread in 'suggestions').

Refresh my memory as well, if i remember correctly, when you use suppresion fire, the BARs damage output is lowered, or is its accuracy? 

[Hicks58]

ROF and suppression goes up, accuracy goes down the shitter.

[TheVolskinator]

Argument: G43 slow is bs, they can slow a target, walk up, and flame it with incind nades or a blob of infantry. They need a general nerf.

Support: I myself hate G43 spam coys, they infuriate me because of the tactics of 'spam slow, spam incind nades, mass retreat if any form of opposition appears, rinse, repeat'.

Opposition: The slow ability incurs horrid accuracy penalties on the squad that used it, and it also greatly reduces damage output. G43s are also complete shit compared to Grenadier K98s and other ranged weapons, and lack general effectiveness against hardier targets such as rangers, tommies, and even paras.

Resolution: Offer a single, buffed G43 with no Slow ability, that greatly outperforms even Grenadier K98s. Other options include replacing Slow with a targeted Suppressing Fire knockoff, or making G43s a pure damage increasing tool (and in the case of the last proposition, add G41s to the roster of PG upgrades, give them the Slow ability. G41s would be complete and utter shit, as they were historically, and would make the upgrade spam much harder to produce to a high point of effectiveness, as the upgrade would become a purely slowing tool).

[Mgallun74]

i see no problem with G43, or Bar, its just a special ability for the weapon.... i just deal with it.

[TheVolskinator]

True, I myself dont care either way. But people want to put up whatever changes theyd like and it usually ends up as a shit throwing contest. I beg mods to keep a look out for stuff like that in this thread and to delete any and all of it. Anyone want to add input? Add a comment supporting or opposing a balance change, and list several good, statistical reasons why it should/should not come into effect. If you have issues with other infantry based weaponry, even handheld AT, please post  it up in the 'Argument, Support, Opposition, Resolution' format as I did, just to keep everything nice and neat etc .

[Mgallun74]

ah, i dont have any issues with infantry at this time..

only the rapid firing, moving ist.

[Jokee]

Hey, Devs! Leave the BAR alone! Its nice to see some constructive ideas. I just dont see the problem. As for me, I say leave it the way it is. Part of why CoH is an RTS game is the S...Strategy...that imho says it all. If BARs suppress your infantry blobs...well...dont blob is all I can say. All these issues people tend to have are an outcome of poor strategy.

The other day a guy stormed my airborne infantry with far superior and tunned up blob of Falshimjagers who to everyones surprise (mine included) got turned into a bloody mess. Why, because my HMG AB and AB LMG squad got them into crossfire (the mortar helped too). The point is, if you dont blob your infantry, you dont have the problem of your whole force being pinned down.

So to summarize what I tried to say here,

Leave it alone unless it is a serrious balance issue, not a failure on the side of the player like it in many cases is.

[Demon767]

you say no trolling, yet you open up your OP with an insult and you not only mention 'troll' multiple times in your OP argument

you mad?

I believe BARs are OP, except i cant decide if that is biased cuz they own me so hard, and in my situations, even pinning just one target is enough cuz i dont blob. so in fact, even though they are so strong, as someone already said in the thread,epic weak platform. throw in some p4 rounds and the rifle squad firepower is pitiful. so, id say, leave it, deal with it, find a way to counter it.

[TheVolskinator]

What I hoped would come across is that everyone complains about how those things are OP, when in fact, they are just powerful--not TOO powerful. Nor did I single anyone out, kthxbye. You also failed to note when I posted that I myself didnt find any problems with anything inf related atm.

[Poppi]

All my inf have bars. And no its not instant pwn.
Recharge time is high, and suppress/pin doesnt always work. Especially against mobs of mp40. Without suppress i dont even care for a bar. I think DPS sucks. unless im using it wrong. And most of the time the only way i could depend on inf w/ bars is if the inf out number the axis inf. This doesnt sound like OP at all.

[Jokee]

Yes it is balance issue, otherwise people wouldn't make bar threads in first place.

They would if they are crybabies. Like I said, if you dont want your infantry blob pinned, dont blob. I could make an argument for any game mechanics being OP just because im unable to get rid of it.

Of the top of my head:

Hotchkisses having stuka and main gun.
Hotchkisses having stuka and main gun while Calliope doesnt.
Panzershrecks shoot too far.
Flamethrowers have way too long range.
British infantry blobs are op because they kill my mg squad without it ever suppressing them.
Shermen is too weak.
Puma is too strong compared to M8.

I got pages of these, I can go on.

Serriously. If you look at the survivability of the riflesquad, BAR is just a minor inconvenience.