HMG

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[Mysthalin]

Ah, ok according to your logic, a more expensive unit should just beat up cheaper unit because its cheaper no matter how you use them?! (ok lets spam the most expensive units and kill everything)
And you cant compare HMG with other anti infantry weapons: Hmg must set up first, has a fire radius cant shoot while moving, thus its very immobile, while every other units can shoot while moving  have no fire radius...
The HMG just needs a bit love from the developers, increase either its range or make it supress quicker to prevent crawl and kill actions! BTW i would gladly pay more for an HMg that really fullfill its role as antiinf antiblob weapon!

Never said anything of the like.
Ceteris paribus, however (meaning all else being equal) a more expensive unit with the traits

Infantry
Anti-Infantry

should beat another, cheaper unit with the traits

Infantry
Anti-Infantry

As would be expected, for instance - for a thompson ranger squad to defeat an MP40 volks squad. Naturally, skill largely comes into play in this - and a well-used HMG will beat a poorly used grenadier (and vice versa) - but as far as current gameplay is concerned - if anything, HMGs are horrendously Overpowered for what they cost and the ammount of popcap they take up.

Ironically, however - I have reason to believe that them costing too little is what's making them be so shit in the perception of players on both sides. People look at their HMG and think "well, it's just 3 popcap, it's 20 munitions and I don't give a shit about it. Tell you what, I'll pop it into a building on the back-field to "watch my flank" without ever actually moving it up and using it to it's full potential with the rest of the troops. And how is a unit supposed to be good if it is not, on the aggregate, being used to it's full efficiency?

If anything - put the popcap costs of all HMGs by 1, and double their munitions price. Then watch the skill utilised in actually using the HMG skyrocket. Then again, you're one of those people who expects his HMG to be awesome while sitting there in a building in a back-field "protecting the flank", so I'm guessing you'll be against that option.

[DarkSoldierX]

1. Yes .30 firing max range at a standard unit doesnt always suppress. I had ton of units just crawl their healthy happy non suppressed ass 4 feet infront of my .30 and start unloading rounds, grenades, or flames.

2. Only 3 pop? And what its not allowed to be useful? Whats the point of having it take 2 pop if it cant do its job then? As i said gladly take a more expensive MG that i can depend on, than one that fails.

The point is it keeps infantry away, and if your just too fucking stupid to support it thats your fault.

Hell, a fucking can jeep infantry from rushing your MG.

Its VERY useful, on my CW accounts without even using SF I surprise suppress Pgrens at long range.

The 3 pop is VERY useful its a fucking force multiplier. Your AI will have easy time when they arnt getting targeted when enemy inf is forced into attacking HMG or getting pinned, or they get pinned anyway and your AI laugh and finish them off.

I use MGs on all of the factions. (Panzer elite too, doctrinal 4 man MG42 and ambush 34)

[vonsteph]

Never said anything of the like.
Ceteris paribus, however (meaning all else being equal) a more expensive unit with the traits

Infantry
Anti-Infantry

should beat another, cheaper unit with the traits

Infantry
Anti-Infantry

As would be expected, for instance - for a thompson ranger squad to defeat an MP40 volks squad. Naturally, skill largely comes into play in this - and a well-used HMG will beat a poorly used grenadier (and vice versa) - but as far as current gameplay is concerned - if anything, HMGs are horrendously Overpowered for what they cost and the ammount of popcap they take up.

Ironically, however - I have reason to believe that them costing too little is what's making them be so shit in the perception of players on both sides. People look at their HMG and think "well, it's just 3 popcap, it's 20 munitions and I don't give a shit about it. Tell you what, I'll pop it into a building on the back-field to "watch my flank" without ever actually moving it up and using it to it's full potential with the rest of the troops. And how is a unit supposed to be good if it is not, on the aggregate, being used to it's full efficiency?

If anything - put the popcap costs of all HMGs by 1, and double their munitions price. Then watch the skill utilised in actually using the HMG skyrocket. Then again, you're one of those people who expects his HMG to be awesome while sitting there in a building in a back-field "protecting the flank", so I'm guessing you'll be against that option.

I see we dont come together. You say the HMG is very cheap, and in relation to its price its very powerfull. I am saying the HMG (at least the 30cal) is too weak. I dont say anything about the price; as i said before: i would gladly pay more for an HMG that actually tears up EVERY infantry rushing it frontal. Thats why an Mg was invented for!
Nowadays it seems a very common tactic to just spam the most powerful infantry to counter every other unit, there seems to be no place for the weak HMG. The Hmg should kill or atleast pinn down ur whole blob, if u are stupid enough to rush it frontal!  Ever tried the Blitzkrieg mod? they have a quite good infantry battle!

[Mysthalin]

Go read the guidelines of the Balance Discussions, specifically the point about realism having no place here.

This isn't a realism mod. Go play Blitzkrieg Mod, or BotB if you want realism so badly.

Not to mention that the HMG does suppress blobs that rush it frontally. What you are describing is, in fact, a complete and utter lie that you have absolutely nothing to back up with. I don't care what your eyes may or may not have seen - cause frankly I don't give a shit about your eyesight. The RGDs have always, and will always provide a far more reasonable determination of what can and what can't happen than the accounts of some rabid realism fanboy - with the only exceptions being a bug. And in that case, some more solid proof of the bug is actually required.

[Mister Schmidt]

Vonsteph, no offence, but you're new, you haven't got the hang of things, and you can argue your opinion as much as you like, but at the end of the day, you're wrong, and you're using the HMG wrong.

[vonsteph]

Go read the guidelines of the Balance Discussions, specifically the point about realism having no place here.

This isn't a realism mod. Go play Blitzkrieg Mod, or BotB if you want realism so badly.

Not to mention that the HMG does suppress blobs that rush it frontally. What you are describing is, in fact, a complete and utter lie that you have absolutely nothing to back up with. I don't care what your eyes may or may not have seen - cause frankly I don't give a shit about your eyesight. The RGDs have always, and will always provide a far more reasonable determination of what can and what can't happen than the accounts of some rabid realism fanboy - with the only exceptions being a bug. And in that case, some more solid proof of the bug is actually required.

Realism has no place here? Oh why are we playing a game thats based in ww2, germans vs allied, with historical vehicles weapons and a mod that actually improves realism by sending troops into battle and not producing them? Dude we need a BIT of realism to the game to be funny and the game mechanics should be comprehensible. And fact is: The HMG is way to weak against infantry.
A more powerfull one would be more realistic = yes, but i would also improve the gameplay! It seems like realism is an swearword in here.  I dont know why you are so heavy against a stronger HMG, maybe ur a blobber??!
Btw i said th infantry gameplay is good in blitzkrieg mod, but i dont like the mod as a whole so im not playing it. This mod has far better rudiment than most other mods; but why not include good parts from other mods?

[vonsteph]

Vonsteph, no offence, but you're new, you haven't got the hang of things, and you can argue your opinion as much as you like, but at the end of the day, you're wrong, and you're using the HMG wrong.

Ok im new to the game mate, but not to COH so i know how to play.
But im not saying that COH is making things right, thats why im playing mods and not the original game..

[Mister Schmidt]

vCoH has no relevance here, and the reason realism is bad is because balance is far more important than making things as powerful as you feel they should be. Honestly, HMG's are fine, they really are, you simply cannot use them alone and expect them to do it all, I know you want to, I understand, but that isn't how it works, and you need to accept that and move on.

[MittinsKittens]

Ok im new to the game mate, but not to COH so i know how to play.
But im not saying that COH is making things right, thats why im playing mods and not the original game..

Don't want to sound an asshole, but seeing as you're new. You might want to hold off trying to get things balanced for the first couple weeks/months so you get an idea how the balance is currently is, learn the units and how games flow before trying to get things changed.
Hell, I've played this mod on and off for about 2 years now and I still don't get involved in the balance side of things because I don't know the game well enough to do so. Only time I pip up and start talking about balance if something is completely broke and someone has started the topic for it, but even then, I hardly put any feedback in because what I think has been said

But yeah, Welcome to the Mod Bro, Hope you enjoy your stay. :3

[vonsteph]

But yeah, Welcome to the Mod Bro, Hope you enjoy your stay. :3

Thanks,
Sure i enjoy, this mod is great anyhow and i will keep playing it.
Im just trying to give a feedback of what need some tweak in my opinion (maybe some people agree?  ), to make this mod even more awsome!

[Mysthalin]

You are stating that HMGs are too weak like it's a fact - when they fucking aren't. I gave you the actual fucking facts in my stats rundown back in the begining of the thread. Until you read that in full, please don't reply with the word "fact" - because what you're saying is just your opinion.

The HMG is absolutely and utterly fine - if not actually horridly OP when begining cost-to-effectiveness comparisons with other units. The only thing that's properly keeping it in check is the high pool cost of the ATG which eats up the support pool needed for the HMG.

Now stop wasting my time with realism, and what you think is a better system for infantry combat. I personally think Blitzkrieg's infantry combat system is utter shite and would not work in EiRR's persistency environment.