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[Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
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Topic: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour (Read 12725 times)
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MittinsKittens
Donator
Posts: 916
[Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
on:
May 11, 2011, 02:29:58 pm »
Right, before I start. I hope that I'm doing this correctly. Never started a balance topic on purpose before, so if I've done something wrong (like clumping Puma/AC into ONE balance discussion) could you please point it out. Don't want to fail at basic balance discussion.
So, Lets get this on the road then shall we.
I wanted to start a discussion about the armour of Puma's and the Armoured Cars. I'm feeling that they are a bit flimsy for what role they are meant to be filling.
The Puma and AC are meant to be anti inf vechs, but the fact unsupported small arms can do quite a bit of damage back to them (especially the AC here) before the Puma/AC can push them off the field (by killing them or forcing a retreat). Even more so if they are using Bars or Brens, specially Brens, mainly because just button the vehicle and kill it that way. I don't mind them not allowing my AC/Puma to move, but they shouldn't be allowed to kill/nearly kill them in the process unless some dedicated AT is firing at them too.
What's even worse is the fact that 2 bren carriers can completely lock down and KILL a Puma 50mm. I'm sorry, but as a anti-Vech Vehicle, it should be defeated by lets be honest, an APC.
Hell, I had a game earlier today where I brought on 2 Puma 50mm's to deal with 5 Bren Carriers. They raped me so fast it wasn't funny. So yeah, I feel this is a little broke, specially since you don't see the M8/T17/US/Stuart AA HT getting shut down by Small arms fire as fast as these vechs...
So yeah, I was wondering if the Devs would look into upgrading their armour (Don't know armour class' so I won't know what to suggest for this...) so they don't get shut down by small arms as easily as they do atm.
Also, Curious to what other people think about this. Am I alone in thinking this? and is my Inner Axis Bias-ism getting the better of me here and I don't know what I'm talking about...
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EiRNames:- MittinsKittens & FlutterShyPegasus
Mister Schmidt
Lawmaker
Posts: 5006
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #1 on:
May 11, 2011, 02:37:33 pm »
They both have the same armour, Puma Armour afaik. Which allows for phasing. This means that if any AT weapon does not roll a hit when firing on the puma, it will pass straight through it. This is a highly useful feat. I agree that them dying to small arms is a little gay, but that's why you support them. They're not designed to be used on their own, they just don't work that way.
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Quote from: xez0 on August 29, 2014, 10:57:01 am
and 6th " Main Thing " is you have to Chant " hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare ".
Quote from: Smokaz on November 22, 2011, 09:01:38 am
"Seeing Bigdick in his full sado mask attire, David couldn't help but feel a tingle in his special place.."
DarkSoldierX
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3015
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #2 on:
May 11, 2011, 02:41:42 pm »
Lol I wish AC had puma armour.....
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Quote from: nugnugx on June 03, 2011, 11:42:22 am
two words
atgs and fireflies
Looks who's butthurt
Quote from: BigDick on January 08, 2012, 06:47:44 am
*waiting* 4 DarkSoldierNoobiX pops up to prove how much shit the T17 is penetrating KTs back and Jagd front and how much better the ac/puma is penetrating m10 rear
MittinsKittens
Donator
Posts: 916
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #3 on:
May 11, 2011, 02:42:50 pm »
Quote from: Mister Schmidt on May 11, 2011, 02:37:33 pm
They both have the same armour, Puma Armour afaik.
Sure? The AC seems to die a lot faster then the puma, so I'm pretty sure its not.
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DarkSoldierX
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3015
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #4 on:
May 11, 2011, 02:45:22 pm »
It doesnt. AC has bren carrier armour.
And BTW this does bring up the problem.
Are Stuart and upgunned puma balanced costing the same? They both have dodge armour but puma is more vulnerable to smallarms. And puma upgun doesnt have a sight upgrade and a AI ability upgrade to supliment it. That is worth talking about.
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Mister Schmidt
Lawmaker
Posts: 5006
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #5 on:
May 11, 2011, 02:46:19 pm »
Yeah my bad, I just have a memory of an rr phasing through it... Might have been a scout car thinking about it.. But they get overdrive so meh, evens it out? I don't know.
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smurfORnot
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4715
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #6 on:
May 11, 2011, 02:54:07 pm »
compare it to t17/stag/m8 all are kinda 'similar' in role they should have,but puma just doesnt kill inf fast enough,nor can it dmg vehicles. It has slight advantage to phase armor,but that doesnt mean all that much, when it sucks at killing stuff. There is a reason why you see m8/stag/t17 much more often than a puma,which you rarely see.
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MittinsKittens
Donator
Posts: 916
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #7 on:
May 11, 2011, 02:58:12 pm »
Quote from: Mister Schmidt on May 11, 2011, 02:46:19 pm
Yeah my bad, I just have a memory of an rr phasing through it... Might have been a scout car thinking about it.. But they get overdrive so meh, evens it out? I don't know.
Pretty sure they phrase through the AC, but as far as I know and read (I think). Its nothing to do with what armour type they have. Its a model fuck up where they have no clipping models with projectiles. So they just go straight through it.
Quote from: DarkSoldierX on May 11, 2011, 02:45:22 pm
It doesnt. AC has bren carrier armour.
And BTW this does bring up the problem.
Are Stuart and upgunned puma balanced costing the same? They both have dodge armour but puma is more vulnerable to smallarms. And puma upgun doesnt have a sight upgrade and a AI ability upgrade to supliment it. That is worth talking about.
.
Thought the armour wasn't the same xD
And really? That doesn't sound balanced at all, But what happens in a Puma 50mm v Stuart matchup? I'm assuming the Stuart wins?
@SmurfORNOT, Exactly? Hence why I'm bringing this topic up? Maybe we can make it so Puma's get used a bit more and make them a bit better...
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Mister Schmidt
Lawmaker
Posts: 5006
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #8 on:
May 11, 2011, 02:59:24 pm »
Quote from: MittinsKittens on May 11, 2011, 02:58:12 pm
Pretty sure they phrase through the AC, but as far as I know and read (I think). Its nothing to do with what armour type they have. Its a model fuck up where they have no clipping models with projectiles. So they just go straight through it.
No, it's the phase armour.
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Tymathee
Donator
Posts: 9741
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #9 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:02:58 pm »
puma and ac dont have same armor but it's not the armor that makes it phase, it's a coding entry that's different and yes AC does allow at weapons to "phase"
look under "hit_object_ext" and under "projectile_pass_through" where it says "tp_homing" most entries say "tp_homing = false" but the PUma and AC say "true"
ac is 222 armored car and puma is sdkfz 223 armored car
«
Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 03:05:07 pm by Tymathee
»
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Quote from: nikomas on October 04, 2012, 09:26:33 pm
"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"
Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.
Mister Schmidt
Lawmaker
Posts: 5006
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #10 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:03:56 pm »
Quote from: Tymathee on May 11, 2011, 03:02:58 pm
puma and ac dont have same armor but it's not the armor that makes it phase, it's a coding entry that's different and yes AC does allow at weapons to "phase"
I knew it.
And yeah I know, I just refer to it as being phase armour, I know that's not a specific armour type but everyone knows what it means so yeah.
«
Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 03:06:55 pm by Mister Schmidt
»
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Spartan_Marine88
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4838
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #11 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:05:19 pm »
Quote from: smurfORnot on May 11, 2011, 02:46:51 pm
make yourself a favor,dont use puma,lol,it sucks.
You know 2 pumas/ACs can kill a priest in 4-5 seconds
i don't want to see phased overdrive ACs ripping to shreds my priests
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Quote from: Sachaztan on March 24, 2013, 03:49:43 pm
Yes that's me, the special snowflake.
Katusha
EIR Veteran
Posts: 989
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #12 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:06:30 pm »
Quote from: Spartan_Marine88 on May 11, 2011, 03:05:19 pm
You know 2 pumas/ACs can kill a priest in 4-5 seconds
i don't want to see phased overdrive ACs ripping to shreds my priests
wait what.. AC's barely penetrate priest, let alone do enough damage to kill in 4-5 seconds
2 50mm pumas would take more than 5 seconds
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MittinsKittens
Donator
Posts: 916
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #13 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:09:43 pm »
/bows
Can't believe I'm about to say this but, Why is phrase armour still in the game then? Surely its an easy fix. Just change the variables and you'll fix it?
I'm guessing no. Otherwise it would of been fixed ages ago, even by Relic...
And, If you can fix it. I say fix it and then give then change their armour so they're not as affected by small arms, especially since, lets be honest, Phrase armour is a bug and shouldn't be in the game...
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TheIcelandicManiac
Resident forum troll. Fucked unkn0wns mom
Posts: 6294
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #14 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:13:25 pm »
Its the only thing that makes the Pumas usefull(currently)
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Soon™
Quote from: Shabtajus on May 18, 2013, 02:16:45 am
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Quote from: aeroblade56 on June 21, 2013, 11:47:37 am
Sometimes its like PQ doesnt carrot all.
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NightRain
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3908
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #15 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:18:43 pm »
Puma can't operate alone yet a M8,T17 and a Staghound can operate freely alone or in support. MG suppresses and kills while the main gun damages even p4s frontally.
Puma 50mm can actually work as a cheap tank destroyer. Don't expect much though, it is quite shite otherwise. Puma 2cm is pathentic. Can't even deal with infantry. Dear god if you see 1 bazooka, or other form of hand held AT and the puma goes QQ. It has to be close to be effective, boom stickied! Puma 2cm is almost as fail as Flammenwerfer halftrack really
The only way to buff them is to boost the 2cm's accuracy for long range, LoS would be acceptable too (its a scout vehicle after all) and price decrase. These could be alternatives. Cheaper price or better performance. I've only had 1 time my puma did something and it was at 1-2 meter range vs a squad of thompson rangers going to flank my mg puma scored 16 inf kills. Then it died to something random lol, prob atg.
«
Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 03:20:27 pm by NightRain
»
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Quote from: Unkn0wn on June 05, 2011, 04:01:40 am
Because a forum post should be like a woman's skirt. Long enough to cover the subject material, but short enough to keep things interesting.
MittinsKittens
Donator
Posts: 916
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #16 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:22:44 pm »
@Iceland, I find them killing Inf fine as long as you're shooting them where they don't have cover. Its just the fact they can shoot back and still be pretty effective is the problem at the moment I reckon.. Give them more armour and maybe play with a couple stats and then remove phrase amour..
The 50mm Puma does need looking at a little more then the downgunned one though. It has its moments (like killing a nearly dead Vet 2 Firefly by circle strafing it) but there is scenarios that pop up (like the Bren Carrier raping it by buttoning it) that just make me facepalm and wonder why am I trying to use it...
And @Rain, Maybe that's where I'm going wrong. I try and use them as hit and run vechs, so that means mine are USUALLY unsupported, Although, they're technically supported because I usually bring them on in pairs...
«
Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 03:24:49 pm by MittinsKittens
»
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Spartan_Marine88
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4838
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #17 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:23:17 pm »
Quote from: ararat1993 on May 11, 2011, 03:06:30 pm
wait what.. AC's barely penetrate priest, let alone do enough damage to kill in 4-5 seconds
2 50mm pumas would take more than 5 seconds
Puma 50mm's take longer to kill a priest then 20mm puma lol. Sure you can't penetrate the front, but the rear it penetrates easily 90% of the shots will pen and do the rear hit bonus. Tbh same principal works on a non-t4 Calliope with the truck armor, but the Calliope turns on a dime so its hard to stay at its rear
Are you telling me you can't keep 2 pumas behind a priest?
«
Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 03:32:03 pm by Spartan_Marine88
»
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Tymathee
Donator
Posts: 9741
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #18 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:46:10 pm »
2 pumas behind a priest will rape it quite quickly. 1.00 pen at short range and 2.67 on rear. at 30-25 damage per hit that's 13-20 hits.
Armored Car has same variables. Matter of fact, it looks like the AC is just a weaker health puma. only diff is puma has shorter search radius (8 puma 10 AC) and infantry armor acc (1.0 puma, .75 AC)
oh and garrison and heavy cover acc
Puma .25 and .5
AC .4 and .4
Also AC has 9 detection while puma is 0.
AC is faster (7.5 vs 7.0 and 6 accel vs 4.5)
AC also has faster rotation (75 vs 50)
ac has light_vehicle crit and puma vehicle. and health is 310 vs 220.
i
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LeoPhone
Honoured Member
Posts: 0
Re: [Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour
«
Reply #19 on:
May 11, 2011, 03:56:21 pm »
tbh I think that 9 camo detection is a bug.
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