[Axis] Puma/Amoured Car Armour

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[MittinsKittens]

Right, before I start. I hope that I'm doing this correctly. Never started a balance topic on purpose before, so if I've done something wrong (like clumping Puma/AC into ONE balance discussion) could you please point it out. Don't want to fail at basic balance discussion.

So, Lets get this on the road then shall we.
I wanted to start a discussion about the armour of Puma's and the Armoured Cars. I'm feeling that they are a bit flimsy for what role they are meant to be filling.
The Puma and AC are meant to be anti inf vechs, but the fact unsupported small arms can do quite a bit of damage back to them (especially the AC here) before the Puma/AC can push them off the field (by killing them or forcing a retreat). Even more so if they are using Bars or Brens, specially Brens, mainly because just button the vehicle and kill it that way. I don't mind them not allowing my AC/Puma to move, but they shouldn't be allowed to kill/nearly kill them in the process unless some dedicated AT is firing at them too.

What's even worse is the fact that 2 bren carriers can completely lock down and KILL a Puma 50mm. I'm sorry, but as a anti-Vech Vehicle, it should be defeated by lets be honest, an APC.
Hell, I had a game earlier today where I brought on 2 Puma 50mm's to deal with 5 Bren Carriers. They raped me so fast it wasn't funny. So yeah, I feel this is a little broke, specially since you don't see the M8/T17/US/Stuart AA HT getting shut down by Small arms fire as fast as these vechs...

So yeah, I was wondering if the Devs would look into upgrading their armour (Don't know armour class' so I won't know what to suggest for this...) so they don't get shut down by small arms as easily as they do atm.

Also, Curious to what other people think about this. Am I alone in thinking this? and is my Inner Axis Bias-ism getting the better of me here and I don't know what I'm talking about...

[Mister Schmidt]

They both have the same armour, Puma Armour afaik. Which allows for phasing. This means that if any AT weapon does not roll a hit when firing on the puma, it will pass straight through it. This is a highly useful feat. I agree that them dying to small arms is a little gay, but that's why you support them. They're not designed to be used on their own, they just don't work that way.

[DarkSoldierX]

Lol I wish AC had puma armour.....

[MittinsKittens]

They both have the same armour, Puma Armour afaik.

Sure? The AC seems to die a lot faster then the puma, so I'm pretty sure its not.

[DarkSoldierX]

It doesnt. AC has bren carrier armour.

And BTW this does bring up the problem.

Are Stuart and upgunned puma balanced costing the same? They both have dodge armour but puma is more vulnerable to smallarms. And puma upgun doesnt have a sight upgrade and a AI ability upgrade to supliment it. That is worth talking about.

[Mister Schmidt]

Yeah my bad, I just have a memory of an rr phasing through it... Might have been a scout car thinking about it.. But they get overdrive so meh, evens it out? I don't know.

[smurfORnot]

compare it to t17/stag/m8 all are kinda 'similar'  in role they should have,but puma just doesnt kill inf fast enough,nor can it dmg vehicles. It has slight advantage to phase armor,but that doesnt mean all that much, when it sucks at killing stuff. There is a reason why you see m8/stag/t17 much more often than a puma,which you rarely see.

[MittinsKittens]

Yeah my bad, I just have a memory of an rr phasing through it... Might have been a scout car thinking about it.. But they get overdrive so meh, evens it out? I don't know.

Pretty sure they phrase through the AC, but as far as I know and read (I think). Its nothing to do with what armour type they have. Its a model fuck up where they have no clipping models with projectiles. So they just go straight through it.

It doesnt. AC has bren carrier armour.

And BTW this does bring up the problem.

Are Stuart and upgunned puma balanced costing the same? They both have dodge armour but puma is more vulnerable to smallarms. And puma upgun doesnt have a sight upgrade and a AI ability upgrade to supliment it. That is worth talking about.

.
Thought the armour wasn't the same xD

And really? That doesn't sound balanced at all, But what happens in a Puma 50mm v Stuart matchup? I'm assuming the Stuart wins?

@SmurfORNOT, Exactly? Hence why I'm bringing this topic up? Maybe we can make it so Puma's get used a bit more and make them a bit better...

[Mister Schmidt]

Pretty sure they phrase through the AC, but as far as I know and read (I think). Its nothing to do with what armour type they have. Its a model fuck up where they have no clipping models with projectiles. So they just go straight through it.

No, it's the phase armour.

[Tymathee]

puma and ac dont have same armor but it's not the armor that makes it phase, it's a coding entry that's different and yes AC does allow at weapons to "phase"

look under "hit_object_ext" and under "projectile_pass_through" where it says "tp_homing" most entries say "tp_homing = false" but the PUma and AC say "true"

ac is 222 armored car and puma is sdkfz 223 armored car

[Mister Schmidt]

puma and ac dont have same armor but it's not the armor that makes it phase, it's a coding entry that's different and yes AC does allow at weapons to "phase"

I knew it.

And yeah I know, I just refer to it as being phase armour, I know that's not a specific armour type but everyone knows what it means so yeah.

[Spartan_Marine88]

make yourself a favor,dont use puma,lol,it sucks.

You know 2 pumas/ACs can kill a priest in 4-5 seconds

i don't want to see phased overdrive ACs ripping to shreds my priests

[Katusha]

You know 2 pumas/ACs can kill a priest in 4-5 seconds

i don't want to see phased overdrive ACs ripping to shreds my priests

wait what.. AC's barely penetrate priest, let alone do enough damage to kill in 4-5 seconds

2 50mm pumas would take more than 5 seconds

[MittinsKittens]

/bows

Can't believe I'm about to say this but, Why is phrase armour still in the game then? Surely its an easy fix. Just change the variables and you'll fix it?
I'm guessing no. Otherwise it would of been fixed ages ago, even by Relic...

And, If you can fix it. I say fix it and then give then change their armour so they're not as affected by small arms, especially since, lets be honest, Phrase armour is a bug and shouldn't be in the game...

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Its the only thing that makes the Pumas usefull(currently)

[NightRain]

Puma can't operate alone yet a M8,T17 and a Staghound can operate freely alone or in support. MG suppresses and kills while the main gun damages even p4s frontally.

Puma 50mm can actually work as a cheap tank destroyer. Don't expect much though, it is quite shite otherwise. Puma 2cm is pathentic. Can't even deal with infantry. Dear god if you see 1 bazooka, or other form of hand held AT and the puma goes QQ. It has to be close to be effective, boom stickied! Puma 2cm is almost as fail as Flammenwerfer halftrack really

The only way to buff them is to boost the 2cm's accuracy for long range, LoS would be acceptable too (its a scout vehicle after all) and price decrase. These could be alternatives. Cheaper price or better performance. I've only had 1 time my puma did something and it was at 1-2 meter range vs a squad of thompson rangers going to flank my mg puma scored 16 inf kills. Then it died to something random lol, prob atg.

[MittinsKittens]

@Iceland, I find them killing Inf fine as long as you're shooting them where they don't have cover. Its just the fact they can shoot back and still be pretty effective is the problem at the moment I reckon.. Give them more armour and maybe play with a couple stats and then remove phrase amour..

The 50mm Puma does need looking at a little more then the downgunned one though. It has its moments (like killing a nearly dead Vet 2 Firefly by circle strafing it) but there is scenarios that pop up (like the Bren Carrier raping it by buttoning it) that just make me facepalm and wonder why am I trying to use it...

And @Rain, Maybe that's where I'm going wrong. I try and use them as hit and run vechs, so that means mine are USUALLY unsupported, Although, they're technically supported because I usually bring them on in pairs...

[Spartan_Marine88]

wait what.. AC's barely penetrate priest, let alone do enough damage to kill in 4-5 seconds

2 50mm pumas would take more than 5 seconds

Puma 50mm's take longer to kill a priest then 20mm puma lol. Sure you can't penetrate the front, but the rear it penetrates easily 90% of the shots will pen and do the rear hit bonus.  Tbh same principal works on a non-t4 Calliope with the truck armor, but the Calliope turns on a dime so its hard to stay at its rear

Are you telling me you can't keep 2 pumas behind a priest?

[Tymathee]

2 pumas behind a priest will rape it quite quickly. 1.00 pen at short range and 2.67 on rear. at 30-25 damage per hit that's 13-20 hits.

Armored Car has same variables. Matter of fact, it looks like the AC is just a weaker health puma. only diff is puma has shorter search radius (8 puma 10 AC) and infantry armor acc (1.0 puma, .75 AC)

oh and garrison and heavy cover acc

Puma .25 and .5
AC .4 and .4

Also AC has 9 detection while puma is 0.
AC is faster (7.5 vs 7.0 and 6 accel vs 4.5)

AC also has faster rotation (75 vs 50)

ac has light_vehicle crit and puma vehicle. and health is 310 vs 220.

i

[LeoPhone]

tbh I think that 9 camo detection is a bug.