[WM] Panzer Kampfwagen IV PoS or Decent?

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Mysthalin]

Start reading what I'm saying. Allies will not stick with the high-fuel units because those will be absolutely hard-countered by the high-fuel counterparts the axis SHOULD be fielding at this point and time.

Not only that - the allied doctrines that enjoy the heavy tanks don't have doctrinally buffed infantry that could reasonably hope to take on terror grenadiers, assault, 4-man KCH or massed G43s.

Even vs a lot of light vehicles and medium tanks, you are better off doing support

Which is the reason why, in every single light-vehicle saturated phase of the metagame people whine about how ineffective the pak is, and how they want the upgun puma to be buffed, right?

You sure you have any idea at all what you're talking about?

[Heartmann]

Myst can you try and be civil? no one else is accusing you of being a moron, now i know you did not say that either, but I would consider it a bit obtuse if one did not notice the sarcasm and sneers behind your texts. If im wrong about this ofc, (although i doubt it) but if Iam then im sorry for accusing you

[Mysthalin]

I plead guilty to the sneer, but innocent to the sarcasm part of the accusation.

I don't use sarcasm in balance discussions, unless it's painfully obvious that I am (i.e. "Oh, let's give riflemen a 6x RR upgrade for 20 mun. Because that's a GOOD idea").

[tank130]

Let's get it back on track gents

Thanks

[Tymathee]

So, here's the question. What's the best way to make P4's and Shermans more attractive to use?

I have a few ideas.

Make 75mm Sherman and 76mm Sherman separate units much like upgun puma. This way you can make 76mm Sherman more pop/pool/price etc.

P4 Skirts should reduce incoming damage and penetration from all weapons. Maybe 5-10% (.90 to .95) Also with that change make price say 80-100 munitions and make it slightly slower when using to make a non skirted p4 more attractive or there's no reason to buy a p4 without skirts and choice is always good.

Less buffs for heavies and more for mediums. The reason there's so many heavies is that there are mirror buffs to meds and heavies and if you add on say 10% damage to 87.5 and 10% to 137.5 you're going to go with the one who does more damage because 10% of 137.5 is higher than 10% of 87.5 (13.57 vs 8.75) so you get a bigger bang for your buck.

Also buffing accuracy on a unit that has ok to good accuracy and does a lot of damage is more beneficial than on a unit that has good to great accuracy and does medium damage.

so as an example of my idea let's take an existing doc. HEAT Rounds. 15% dmg, pen to all stug, stuh, ost, tiger, p4, panther. If you change it to say 20/25% dmg/pen on stug, p4, stuh, 15% dmg, pen on ost, panther and tiger, you make all choices attractive rather than people seeing HEAT rounds and going "oh, i'll just go panthers and tigers"

[BigDick]

rofl people are complaining about insane high munitions costs on P4 to make them a bit useful and tym is suggesting a 50% skirt mun price increase

 

[smurfORnot]

YES,pay 100mun for skirts + repair+mg,almost 200mun into P4...WIN!

[AmPM]

Tym, you do know that HEAT rounds sucks right? And that people skip it for Battle Hardened because one makes almost everything better, and the other, well, is a negligible increase. It also ONLY helps one build in one doctrine. So does not solve the issue of the P4 sucking balls.

Heat should be 10% damage, 25% penetration all around. Mostly crap for heavies that already penetrate, but good for medium armor. That would at least make it useful for medium armor, and a minor bonus for heavy armor (if people don't take battle hardened).

An even better solution, add in AP rounds for the P4, on cool down that cost a minor munitions price, at least then you have the OPTION of fighting other tanks. Or just give them the STuG gun.

Myst, did you not read my post, who said anything about using only PaKs? PaK + Tiger is pretty good AT and AI, for 21pop. Toss in a Mortar to cap or an HMG and you are pretty golden unless they bring a build just to counter you. Then again, thats why you have 20 Elite Armor Grenadiers in the company as well.

Change to light vehicles or no, for Wehrmacht there is no reason to not take the biggest tank you can, and that is because the P4 will lose to a single M10/Sherman Upgun or even to the "light vehicle" spam you suggest it should counter.

Investing in a tank that is a soft counter to LV's but loses to almost any other tank in a straight fight is not a wise choice.

[Tymathee]

rofl people are complaining about insane high munitions costs on P4 to make them a bit useful and tym is suggesting a 50% skirt mun price increase

 

and an overall effectiveness increase. 5-10% incoming pen and damage against ALL AT is pretty dang good. Handheld AT would stay as is.

YES,pay 100mun for skirts + repair+mg,almost 200mun into P4...WIN!

above

Tym, you do know that HEAT rounds sucks right? And that people skip it for Battle Hardened because one makes almost everything better, and the other, well, is a negligible increase. It also ONLY helps one build in one doctrine. So does not solve the issue of the P4 sucking balls.

Heat should be 10% damage, 25% penetration all around. Mostly crap for heavies that already penetrate, but good for medium armor. That would at least make it useful for medium armor, and a minor bonus for heavy armor (if people don't take battle hardened).

An even better solution, add in AP rounds for the P4, on cool down that cost a minor munitions price, at least then you have the OPTION of fighting other tanks. Or just give them the STuG gun.

HEAT doesn't suck, I use it and do quite well with it, it just doesn't boost P4's and stugs into rape machines but I use it with the other t3 everyone uses and I'm effective.

but if do a dmg + pen increase like that and it only affects one type of unit which are mediums, then people who like heavy tanks will ignore it completely since teh damage increase isn't enough and the pen increase doesn't do enough either.

Lol ap rounds anyway, I think the best suggestion I made is making the 75 and 76 into separate units then you can make the 76mm Sherman say 13 or 14 pop, maybe raise the price and fuel.

[Hicks58]

AP Rounds... Lol, anybody remember what happened when HVAP gave AP rounds on a cool down?

Dual M10's were never so much fun.

See an enemy Pershing? Grab two PIV's, pop AP rounds, lul.

[smurfORnot]

see enemy tiger,grab 2 m10-s,way cheaper than p4's...and you will have same scenario 

[Tymathee]

If ur using a tiger and die to 2 m-10's ur doing it wrong

[panzerman]

tbh you are doing it right 2 m10's with hvap is a great counter if u know how to kite.

[Hicks58]

HVAP doesn't make a great deal of difference to max range frontal penetration for Tigers... I put the penetration tables up somewhere, I'll track them down later.

Oh, and you'd win using kiting if you have HVAP or not.

[Tymathee]

tbh you are doing it right 2 m10's with hvap is a great counter if u know how to kite.

he didn't say hvap'd m-10, he just said m-10 and yes if u go 1 tiger vs 2 m10 but i'm sayin ur doing it wrong cuz if u have a tiger with no AT support then ur using tiger wrong

[smurfORnot]

well,ofcourse that you are doing it wrong if you have no at support...I just replied to hicks post,2 P4's with ap rounds against pershing....and where is pershing's support?

head to head,2 M10 > panther/tiger ,and cost way less. You can just circle strafe tiger easily if he has no support.

[AmPM]

Tym, if you are using HEAT with Tigers you are gimping yourself. They are much better with Elite Armor Grens than with a puny damage buff and Pen that doesn't help them much.

With Medium armor HEAT doesn't do a damned thing.

Tiger without HEAT does what, 127.5?

With HEAT its a whopping 146.6

You know how much of a difference that makes when shooting, lets say, a Sherman? NONE, its 5 shots either way.

All it does is maybe kill an M10 in 3 hits, compared to killing it in 4 hits but crippling it in 3...

Or you just vet up, get the +20% at vet 3, and call it a day either way. HEAT doesn't help at all once you get that.

Anyway, why not give P4's a high pen round that does the standard 87.5 damage? Oh no! Your Pershing can be countered by medium armor just like a Tiger!!!! QQ

[panzerman]

he didn't say hvap'd m-10, he just said m-10 and yes if u go 1 tiger vs 2 m10 but i'm sayin ur doing it wrong cuz if u have a tiger with no AT support then ur using tiger wrong

soz must have read ur first post wrong i swear u didn't say a tiger supported. really all this theorycrafting should be obsolete cause in came it's how u use everything not just ur tigers or p4s or shermans or pershings they still need support.

should have been if ur losing to 2 m10's with a tiger and combined arms your doing it wrong.

[NightRain]

Skirts reduce 25% Damage and penetration. What tym is suggesting is more or less so idiotic that it makes me want to hit my head in the dessk eight times to crack my skull open.

10 - 5% damage reduction with a price of  90 munitions. GJ Tym, GJ. Skirts are already as worthless on a P4 as it is as the 25% only helps to fight vs a tank and it is a minimal aid as the whole thing doesn't even penetrate anything but a light vehicle.

What AmPm said is good idea. Increase Penetration of the thing to make it worth while. P4's useage, was metagame this or that is low due to it being a- rather shit tank. You're better off with a StuG or StuH in that matter as StuG can fight everything and a StuH can fight vs infantry.

Exceptionally P4's Splash damage could be increased to make it look like a anti infantry tank.

[panzerman]

Exceptionally P4's Splash damage could be increased to make it look like a anti infantry tank.

thought they where like this i remeber when they actually hit infantry on regular basis and did a bout load of damage to them.