Only nubs use Heavy & Super Heavy Tanks!

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[cloud234]

----- In Summary -----

1. Heavy/Super Heavy Tanks are easy to use (require only micro of 1 unit, unless mass coordination of 5-6 units)
2. Heavy/Super Heavy Tanks are able to easily kill their value in MP and FU
3. They have to low Munition cost, allowing for the climate of Elite Inf/Powerful Anti-Inf weapons to excel and defeat all inf-based units.
4. Increase munition cost for Super Heavies or reduce ATG munition price.
   a. If not, Medium Tanks cost too much munitions in comparison to Super Heavies and cannot kill as much.
   b. You can buy 2 medium tanks or even 3... but they are not popcap efficient or DPS efficient... or as survivable.

----- End of Summary -----

Real men use Medium Tanks.

Interestingly, tanks in heavy/super heavy class are always deemed as "balanced", slow and unwieldy... and that is probably true, if you start with a heavy tank. However, 15 minutes into the game, you probably have about 32-35 popcap (if you don't you suck and need to kill yourself) and you can easily call on a Tiger/Pershing/KT/<relevant hvy tank> with about 20pop worth of infantry to support you!

A quick look at the Price List yielded this information

KT: 920 MP, 680 FU, 100 MU for repair
Tiger: 640MP, 550 FU, 80 MU for repair (110 xtra repair)
Jagd: 780MP, 660 FU, 100MU for repair

Croc Churchie: 500MP, 380FU, 60 MU for repair
Pershing: 620 MP, 545 FU, 80MU for repair (110 xtra repair)
Jumbo: 540MP, 380 FU, 50MU for Repair (80 xtra repair)

Over all, if you think about it, they cost a ton of resources and popcap! They ought to be worth that much! Note however, they don't need MUCH munition, compared to using Medium Tanks.

In reality, I think its safe to assume that you can park any one of super heavies infront of 2 ATGs, kill them both and walk away to repair... and repeat that a second time (and 3rd if you've got xtra repair)... unless they've got AP rounds and TR.

With your MP and FU investment, you can fight off not only ATGs, Medium Tanks, Infantry but almost everything else they throw at you! Tanks are the worse counters vs Super Heavies because they eat up pop. The best counter is really ATGs which are low pop and efficient, but they cost lots of manpower and munitions.

All the super heavy player needs to do, is bring out elite infantry.... which surprise surprise, hard counters all infantry based anti-tank solution! Hell, you can even throw schrecks on them and still have anti inf (i.e. marksman gren, schreck + KT + Pervitin Pills)... talk about an EZ win.

If you used medium tanks instead... look at how gimped you are.

Sherman: 395MP, 240FU, Upgun 60 Mu, 50 Cal 50Mu, Repair 50Mu
WHAT?!?!?!? Paying 160 Mu for anti-inf and anti-tank capabilities that is WORSE than a pershing? Sure, you can ditch the Upgun if you like... anything other than a P4 would rape it anyway but still, 240 fuel and shitz. You may as well get a Jumbo which kills all inf based stuff really well and laughs in the face of AT.

Panzer IV: 400MP, 250FU, 60MU Side Skirts, 30Mu MG42, 50 MU Repair.
10 Fu more than Sherman, still loses to sherman upgun, gets killed by ATG spam, and M10s are cheaper and better. What's the point of using a P4 really?

My point is that, you'll get much more attrition efficiency with heavies to super heavies than you'll ever get with medium tanks. The large munition left over, gives them a huge advantage to easily beat the traditional ATG spam and what-not.

I think, Medium Tanks are fine as they are, in terms of risk and reward, requiring skill to pull it off... but super heavies and stuff? Its a no brainer.

[Mister Schmidt]

I don't get the point of this post. Are you deliberately contradicting yourself?

[Tymathee]

maybe heavies and super heavies need muni attached to them

[RikiRude]

I have to agree with this post, not the "players who use this tactic are nubs" but in general i think this is true.

I had an armor company and had a lot of shermans for support (all upgunned and with a .50 and two repairs), the company did not do too well. i switched over to 2 pershings, I had so god damned much munis left over I was able to give a ton of rifles stickies/nades/bars. needless to say the two pershings lead to me winning every game I played til I got bored and switched up my company and doctrine choices.

[sgMisten]

He's saying that:

[1] medium tanks are over-priced in the current environment because they cost moderate amounts of MP, Fuel AND munitions.

[2] Superheavy + Elite inf combo is too strong. Superheavy tanks cost mostly MP and Fuel, free-ing up Munitions to equip elite infantry which then slaughter the main AT counter to heavy tanks (ATGs), which are also actually hard-countered by super heavies anyway.

[cloud234]

I have to agree with this post, not the "players who use this tactic are nubs" but in general i think this is true.

I hate to say this, but I don't remember those "players" winning much when they were still using medium tanks, inf + ATG. In fact, having played with some of them when they don't use their super heavies... they just thrashed... really bad.

[Malgoroth]

I'ma take the time to point out that a Tiger with double repairs is 190 munis. The munis you WOULD be investing in mediums is instead spent on heavies. 2 Tanks as opposed to like... 6. This frees up a shit ton of munitions for infantry, yes. However, if those 2 (two!) tanks get screwed over somehow then that's a huge chunk of your army negated. If anything, medium spamming is more lenient on you and working with 2 heavies is actually less forgiving. My blitz with shitty P4 (and an Ost) spam was 16-4 before I got tigers. More tanks meant it mattered less if I was careless with one of them.  

[Demon767]

stop being a pussy and name names

[8thRifleRegiment]

Im sorry i have to disagree, countless times ive seen tigers come out and not do anythign except come out, get m10 rushed or sticked and die. Without putting in thier value, you have to understand if you use a super heavy your putting soo much reliance on this unit suceeding in the process. And super heavies do cost alot of muni, tigers are in the range for double repair i think its 190 munitions for double repairs. They dont need muni attached they are fine as is, and a perfectly viable tactic and EASILY beatn

[8thRifleRegiment]

Sherman: 395MP, 240FU, Upgun 60 Mu, 50 Cal 50Mu, Repair 50Mu
WHAT?!?!?!? Paying 160 Mu for anti-inf and anti-tank capabilities that is WORSE than a pershing? Sure, you can ditch the Upgun if you like... anything other than a P4 would rape it anyway but still, 240 fuel and shitz. You may as well get a Jumbo which kills all inf based stuff really well and laughs in the face of AT.

Panzer IV: 400MP, 250FU, 60MU Side Skirts, 30Mu MG42, 50 MU Repair.
10 Fu more than Sherman, still loses to sherman upgun, gets killed by ATG spam, and M10s are cheaper and better. What's the point of using a P4 really?

My point is that, you'll get much more attrition efficiency with heavies to super heavies than you'll ever get with medium tanks. The large munition left over, gives them a huge advantage to easily beat the traditional ATG spam and what-not.

I think, Medium Tanks are fine as they are.

Do you enjoy shooting yourself in the foot?

[AmPM]

maybe heavies and super heavies need muni attached to them

Maybe doctrines need to stop overbuffing infantry to the point where it is stupid to spend muni's on Medium tanks instead of men.

[MittinsKittens]

Yeah, people are hitting this on the head.
(Super) Heavies take a massive chunk of your tank pool. Get unlucky or careless and you can stand to chuck that away pretty easily and not have much left to go on. Its probably better against some coys just to tank spam (like, in my blitz coy atm, I got a panther, 4-5 StuGs, and 2 StuHs. Going to swap the panther for a tiger however :3)

[brn4meplz]

A while back I crippled both of Panda's Tigers in the first 15 mins and he was effectively out of the match for the next 30. If you remove these assets it's a crippling blow which is much harder to recover from then losing something else.

[pandaExpress]

WAIT  i havent used tigers since GC and i would only call out tigers if all my shit is dead so i dont think it was me

[spinn72]

tbh Super heavies are only as useful as your teammates/teamwork is. No matter how good you are, you can't win a game with a KT on your own.

[MittinsKittens]

...Unless the enemy is completely terrible and basically line up to take on the KT one after another

[cloud234]

I'ma take the time to point out that a Tiger with double repairs is 190 munis. The munis you WOULD be investing in mediums is instead spent on heavies. 2 Tanks as opposed to like... 6. This frees up a shit ton of munitions for infantry, yes. However, if those 2 (two!) tanks get screwed over somehow then that's a huge chunk of your army negated. If anything, medium spamming is more lenient on you and working with 2 heavies is actually less forgiving. My blitz with shitty P4 (and an Ost) spam was 16-4 before I got tigers. More tanks meant it mattered less if I was careless with one of them. 

Actually, its much easier to micro a single unit, than to micro multiple units.

Its quite evident that the heavies and superheavies dominate the leaderboard. I ran a pershing company for a bit, yet to do KT or Jagd. Its extremely easy to play, without much skill needed.

If you guys can micro more than one unit, go play without those heavies and all that free-uped munitions to support you = )

Frankly speaking, you guys can't hold ur ground without a clutch like a super heavy to hold you up. I won't bother putting names. I'll put a replay up if those "guys" ever go around to play non-super heavy companies.

...Unless the enemy is completely terrible and basically line up to take on the KT one after another

You will be quite amazed at how many people actually do that, which allows the super heavies to dominate easily.

[MittinsKittens]

Yeah cloud. I know, Its especially funny when people chuck EVERYTHING away trying to vet hunt the tank while allowing you to easily support it by shoot at the vet hunters.
Had a game yesterday when some dude threw away 2 M10's to kill a Jadg. In that same game we also managed to kill TWO Pershings from the same dude. Was the easiest Pershings Kill I've seen and the fact we killed two (from the same guy?) was just funny as fuck xD

[NightRain]

Shermans are too good and P4s are too shite. Now that Axis general tank is useless what other vehicles do you have available? People say StuGs are shit and they are- vs ATGs that is. Gwagons are glasscannons but they are mobile atgs so maybe.

So what does Axis generally have available? Heavy tanks. Defensive cries because it got nothing but Terror and Blitz has KT and Tiger- KT's decent and tiger is shite but they are somewhat munition free and allows that 2000 munition to go something else.

[Malgoroth]

Cloud, you're assuming the person using mediums will have more than one tank on the field at a time. If that person has just one medium on the field then they are putting the same amount of effort into micro on that unit as they would a heavy tank.

But, assuming they DO have 2 tanks on the field... let's hypothesize:
Assuming 40 population has been reached, and a balanced company is being used on the field...
2 mediums: 24 pop
2 basic infantry squads: 10 pop
1 mg/mortar/atg: 3/4/5 pop.

That's 5 units.

1 heavy: 16 pop
3 basic infantry squads: 15 pop
mg and atg: 8 pop
or
mortar and atg: 9 pop
or
mortar and mg: 7 pop

5 units as opposed to 6

That's just hypothetical - but with one heavy on the field, you are usually going to have more pop left over to field more units at a time. More units means more micro. So... by your own logic, since heavies involve more army micro as a whole; then they require more skill to use properly than medium tanks.