[WM] Volksgrenadier, KCH and Faust

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[PonySlaystation]

I'm pretty tired of the generic WM builds you are forced to play with. Volksgrenadiers and Knights Cross Holders do not fufill their supposed roles. Everyone is runnig companies with 90% grenadiers (the rest being volks recrew). They do this for a reason, volksgrenadiers and kch are not cost effective at all.

Volksgrenadiers role is to be a cheaper alternative to other infantry, lacking firepower but making up for by it by being cheaper and a multi-role unit. ie having access to the pzfaust which can be helpful to counter LV or to cover a pak. But if you remove the pzfaust part then suddelnly volksgrenadiers are left with just the role of recrewing.
People still use volks but not as a support role but rather for their anti-infantry capabilities and recrew or both. But they simply cannot perform well enough to be anti-infantry. A good example of this is this game where smokaz had a company of upgraded 6-man volks and lost only because of the units he chose. If he had done the exact same thing but with grenadiers his score would be twice as high. The Fausts simply took up so much of his munitions that he could not afford real upgrades, which is a huge disadvantage.
Devs said the increased cost was a placeholder but for what? Was it even needed? Looking back at the faust thread it was mostly just nugnug bias and everyone was disagreeing with him, his entire strategy revolved around LV spam. Faust was the only proper counter to that.
Faust has been the same since what? Day one of EIR? There was never a problem with it.

Let me take an example argument I found frequently used by nugnug and myst (the avid posters in the faust thread and LV lamers of EIR).
"For the price of one pak you can get three fausts. And three fausts can do more damage than one pak shot, therefor fausts are OP. "
Did you forget about the fact that it's a lot harder to shoot three fausts than one pak shot? Have you never heard of kiting? Let me show you an argument of equal intelligence: Two stickies costs as much as one ATG but two stickies can damage the engine of four tigers which is a lot more than one ATG can do. Therefor stickies are OP. Would the sticky be overpowered and eligible for a nerf with that logic?

Really devs? I am disappoint.

Spartan gets it

Fixing shit that isn't broken makes shit terrible

Knights Cross Holders (not oak leaves) role is to be the best infantry in all of germany. A more expensive alternative to other infantry, making up for their higher cost by having more health and better weapons, meaning that in a group they will have some killing power. However they can never live up to their high cost.
This issue dates back to vcoh. The main issue is the high munition cost. It costs 40 munitions more than lmg grens. I don't think you can say that 3-man kch are good. Because no one is using them ingame, they're simply not costworthy.

Problem - Volksgrenadier panzerfaust is too expensive
Solution - Decrease price to 35 or 40
Alternative solution - Put a limit on the number of faust upgrades you can have to 8 and decrease price to 35
Alternative solution 2 - Increase faust cooldown and decrease price to 35
Alternative solution 3 - Decrease price of faust to 35, sticky to 50, magnetic to 45 and AT rifles to 60. (they're all a bit too expensive but faust is the main issue)

Problem - 3-man Knight Cross Holders are too expensive
Solution - Decrease muni price to 90 from 110
Alternative solution - decrease pop to 4 (they are 3-man, why are they 5 pop? maybe not a better solution, it could create kch spam)

[NightRain]

Volks are the most cost effective infantry squad if used right. Defeat any infantry squad- you win.

[PonySlaystation]

Volks are the most cost effective infantry squad if used right. Defeat any infantry squad- you win.

How exactly? They deal less damage, have less HP, no grenades and the cost difference is very small. The only thing that made them useful was the multi-role. Most T4s also buff grenadiers and not volks.

[cloud234]

Volksgrenadiers have always been effective. I've never made the switch to grenadiers (until recently) to use panzerschrecks due to the increased presence of light vehicles.

Since Myst has not posted yet, I'll just put 2 cents about it.

Volks are good for:

1. Blitz - Using assault
2. Others - MP40s, not as good but useful
3. Fausts - Instant penetration on heavies. Pretty useful. Junk against people who knows how to kite with light vehicles. Medium tanks is a 50/50 chance. Heavy tanks have to pull back and rising losing their support weapons to your swarm, or get fausted.

I do find volks as a cheap alternative. I disagree significantly with the increase in volk mp pricing and faust. I played with and against (yes, I do not stack with him all the time) his volkspam company when fausts was 30 munitions. I had ZERO difficulties fighting it... largely being a specialist anti-infantry player myself.

To be honest, I would not put smokaz as a good volks user. I admit he has good micro but he has never struck me as a volksgrenadier user with his play style.

Fausts have their place in the arsenal.  However with its current price at 50 munitions... it is a good question on its cost effectiveness.

---

The problem with KCH is that they either succeed marvelously or they fail utterly. Before the current doctrines are in (oakleaves kch yada yada), I use to run a KCH + Volk company.

KCH are very good at killing riflemen and ATG. Against BARs, they will be suppressed 100% (except for the current doctrines buffs which even allow u to eat a ton of suppression BARs before being suppressed...)

If any vehicle comes along (even an M8)... they are screwed.

If you meet anything with flames.... heroic armour burns in fiery toast.

There was a korean duo in the past which ran a KCH + Gren w/ Schreck call in. Was an interesting build but rather expensive. Good anti-tank and inf combination.

Their inherent problem is, they are damn good at killing unupgraded infantry butwill die horribly to everything else. If u drop it to 80 munitions, u make KCH too cheap. It also places it out of line with the pricing of assault weapons (if you look, it closely mirrors STG44s for storms, Stens for Commandos, MP44s on PE etc.)

At 4 Pop, you make them too spamable. 12 Pop = 9 KCH running around, even better than oakleaves for same pop but 8 KCH. They also become good at flanking.

It would be very nice if you could write up something more solid. Its an interesting point you're raising but more examples will illustrate it better.

[PonySlaystation]

Keep in mind that I'm talking about the regular KCH not the Oak Leaves. 80 munitions would not be too cheap. If you think otherwise then try to have a couple of KCH in your company and watch them drain most of your munitions without performing better than anything. You will soon realize KCH are way too expensive.

Fausts do not instantly penetrate heavies and if a good player lets his heavy tank get that close to a volks then he is not kiting them properly. And even the volks does get in range most of the squad will die, so it's a pretty big sacrifice.

[Masacree]

Volks are pretty useless versus BAR rifles, which because of their relative affordability everyone spams. Increase BAR price and I bet you'll get a lot more use out of volks.

[Mysthalin]

Do some research on the players you are calling out before you do so, Pony.

There's a reason I have a title that says Duke von Volk by my name.

As an avid volks-faust user I'll be the first to tell you that the number one company you would dread facing is one that is saturated with light vehicles because - frankly, you're not going to take out a light vehicle with fausts if the enemy has any idea what he's doing. You are going to be kited and utterly demolished, unless you bring a StuG to cover the volks, or set up an 88 for the same reason (one of these options being high in population for area coverage, while the other takes time to set up and is immobile).

Of course, paks would help the volks immensely - but since I was concentrating on getting as many fausts + grenade combos as I could, it was the StuGs and 88s that I used for the job (still, didn't shun the pak completely - 3 had taken up permanent residence in the company in question).

The problem was never fausts dealing enough damage to alpha-strike light vehicles, nor did it bear any relation to the panzershrek. The problem was the fact you could get a panzerfaust on every single one of your volksgrenadiers. Literally, every. Single. One. You could have so many panzerfausts you wouldn't use them versus just tanks anymore. You'd use them on HMGs to decrew them, you'd use them on towing-away ATGs to help destroy them, you'd use them on basically anything that could pose a threat, and could be reliably be hit by a panzerfaust.

And if it didn't work, you just wouldn't care. You still had 25 more volks with panzerfausts in your company - limited only by infantry pool and manpower woes. Not by a lack of munitions. Grenades on every volks guy? You got it. MP40s for the lulz? Sure, can easily afford it. Full upgrades on StuGs? Yeah, why not, we only ever live once.

Heck why am I talking. I can give you access to BoIokok so you can see for yourself. It's a defensive account of mine from "back in the day". Still has it's awesome 30 muni fausts. Not gonna be playing EiRR in the next couple of days anyway.

And 80 munitions KCH sounds fairly ridiculous to be fair. You pay a whooping 120 munitions for Assault grenadiers, and a massive 95 munitions for double STG44s on Stormtroopers. There's no way a meager 80 munitions on KCH is fair.

[cloud234]

Yes, I know you're talking about regular KCH.

I've said I run a KCH company before (they used to cost more many months ago).

Their performance is very subjective. Like I've said, they are good at killing non-elite infantry/unupgrade stuff. They excel exceedingly well at that. However, in the presence of vehicles / flames, they suck abysmally which I suspect... is probably what you're facing.

Fausts do not instantly penetrate heavies and if a good player lets his heavy tank get that close to a volks then he is not kiting them properly. And even the volks does get in range most of the squad will die, so it's a pretty big sacrifice.

Well, by most "normal" usage no.

What happens is most players often supports his heavies...(I won't discuss idiots who don't) What I do is I make a coordinated push against the heavy with mass infantry. They opponent has to make a choice between saving his tank from fausts or saving his support weapons. Most of the time, people choose to save the tank and lose their support weapons.

This gives you mapcap and their support weapons.

Another situation is, I often recrew weapons with faust volks, leaving them to 2 man squads. Most players rush volk squads (cause very few people actually buys fausts nowadays @ 50 Mu), and because its a 2man squad, or a few scattered 1 or 2 man squads, they expect an easy win. They still win, but they are now down to 50% HP or lower.

I've always seen fausts penetrate but I've seen them miss before. Recent vcoh patch (and eirr) fixed the faust missing issue... however I am not aware that there is a chance it does not penetrate. At the very least it penetrates reliably enough for me to use it against super heavies.

Fausts have their place in the arsenal.  However with its current price at 50 munitions... it is a good question on its cost effectiveness.

I think this is the main problem with fausts. Like you mentioned, a good player can easily kite them. If you want to pull it off, you're gonna take casualties.

[Unkn0wn]

I've always seen fausts penetrate but I've seen them miss before. Recent vcoh patch (and eirr) fixed the faust missing issue... however I am not aware that there is a chance it does not penetrate. At the very least it penetrates reliably enough for me to use it against super heavies.

I've had fausts not penetrate pershing frontal armour, if my memory serves my correct anyway.

[PonySlaystation]

As an avid volks-faust user I'll be the first to tell you that the number one company you would dread facing is one that is saturated with light vehicles because - frankly, you're not going to take out a light vehicle with fausts if the enemy has any idea what he's doing. You are going to be kited and utterly demolished, unless you bring a StuG to cover the volks, or set up an 88 for the same reason (one of these options being high in population for area coverage, while the other takes time to set up and is immobile).

That's not true at all, LV are not a problem unless they try to flank your ATGs in which case you will get in range with faust. However tanks should never be in this hassle because you don't have to drive up to infantry to deal more damage.

The problem was never fausts dealing enough damage to alpha-strike light vehicles, nor did it bear any relation to the panzershrek. The problem was the fact you could get a panzerfaust on every single one of your volksgrenadiers. Literally, every. Single. One. You could have so many panzerfausts you wouldn't use them versus just tanks anymore. You'd use them on HMGs to decrew them, you'd use them on towing-away ATGs to help destroy them, you'd use them on basically anything that could pose a threat, and could be reliably be hit by a panzerfaust.

I agree this was a problem. Fausts being used to destroy ATGs and such but the fix that they had in mind was not a good one. If the problem was really that it was spammed and used against infantry and support weapons then just remove it's ability to be used on those or limit the amount of faust upgrades a player can have in his company. A limit of 8 would be fair but 50 munitions, that's never worth it!

And 80 munitions KCH sounds fairly ridiculous to be fair. You pay a whooping 120 munitions for Assault grenadiers, and a massive 95 munitions for double STG44s on Stormtroopers. There's no way a meager 80 munitions on KCH is fair.

Assault grenadiers are 4-man and are better than KCH. Storms can camouflage and are also 4-man so they're also better. If 80 is too cheap then maybe 90 would be ok but it's really too expensive atm. People still use storms and assault grens but no one is using kch.

[PonySlaystation]

I've had fausts not penetrate pershing frontal armour, if my memory serves my correct anyway.

Doesn't matter, if you do this 3-4 men will be lost. 200 manpower and 50 ammo plus possible upgrades just so you could deal 1% damage of the pershing's health. And this could have been easily avoided by the pershing player if he had just backed up two meters.

[DarkSoldierX]

Your all assuming there is no pak next to them volks. What faust do is when the enemy rushes he eats them faust making him feel the pain, and if he tries to back off hes going to take damage from the pak.

[Unkn0wn]

I'll acknowledge there's a problem with the panzerfaust, the 3-use 50 Mun solution was only intended as a stopgap, until we could effectively soft-cap upgrades like the panzerfaust without having to punish people who didn't build entire companies around them.

I think volks are generally fine, the 3-man KCH squad could probably use another (small) price decrease however.

[Mysthalin]

That's not true at all, LV are not a problem unless they try to flank your ATGs in which case you will get in range with faust. However tanks should never be in this hassle because you don't have to drive up to infantry to deal more damage.

You've not seen good LV usage then.

I agree this was a problem. Fausts being used to destroy ATGs and such but the fix that they had in mind was not a good one. If the problem was really that it was spammed and used against infantry and support weapons then just remove it's ability to be used on those or limit the amount of faust upgrades a player can have in his company. A limit of 8 would be fair but 50 munitions, that's never worth it

If anything needs a hardcap, that thing is broken and not priced correctly. At 50 munitions it's still a bargain for what it's meant to be - supporting AT.

Assault grenadiers are 4-man and are better than KCH. Storms can camouflage and are also 4-man so they're also better. If 80 is too cheap then maybe 90 would be ok but it's really too expensive atm.

No, assault grenadiers are NOT better than KCH. They die faster and get suppressed way faster. With storms there may be a bit of a point - but it would make no sense to buy 2 SMGs for 95 mun when you can get 3 of the same for 80.

Doesn't matter, if you do this 3-4 men will be lost. 200 manpower and 50 ammo plus possible upgrades just so you could deal 1% damage of the pershing's health. And this could have been easily avoided by the pershing player if he had just backed up two meters.

Lies. A faust deals 9 percent damage, at the minimum (assuming the pershing has urban survival kits). otherwise it's 10+ percent damage.

[PonySlaystation]

You've not seen good LV usage then.

Of course I have but if you have the volks behind a pak then the LV cannot kite them.

A faust deals 9 percent damage, at the minimum (assuming the pershing has urban survival kits). otherwise it's 10+ percent damage.

10% damage? What is the chance to penetrate front armor with a faust? Even so it's not an easy task.

I'll acknowledge there's a problem with the panzerfaust, the 3-use 50 Mun solution was only intended as a stopgap, until we could effectively soft-cap upgrades like the panzerfaust without having to punish people who didn't build entire companies around them.

I think volks are generally fine, the 3-man KCH squad could probably use another (small) price decrease however.

Can't you effectively soft-cap upgrades now? Just give them a limit. That's sounds like a better short term fix rather than making them completely useless.

[cloud234]

You've not seen good LV usage then.

If anything needs a hardcap, that thing is broken and not priced correctly. At 50 munitions it's still a bargain for what it's meant to be - supporting AT.

Well, its good for supporting AT against people who don't know how to kite or circle strafe. Use it against competent players and you're better off buying another pak.

I think volks are generally fine, the 3-man KCH squad could probably use another (small) price decrease however.

No. 3 man KCH should not have received that reduction in MP cost recently in the first place. How small is small? If small is at the value of 20Mu or so, you will screw the balance for that unit over. If its at 10Mu, its debate-able on its usefulness.

The problem is that people use units in small amounts for specialised purposes. However, when you cross the threshold of "reasonable pricing" to "cheap" in economic terms, people will buy excessive amounts of it to leverage on the "perceived gains".

The problem with KCH lies in the current doctrine designs and game trends, which makes them non-effective.

---

If you're actually interested in really getting the precise point of balance. Take out all the doctrines and play vanilla again until you get the base pricing right before adding in the doctrines again. Then again, this entails many many many many many balance / design concepts and guidelines... and we all know where that ends.

Of course I have but if you have the volks behind a pak then the LV cannot kite them.

Or they could just eat the faust. Decrew the pak... then proceed to kite ur volks.

10% damage? What is the chance to penetrate front armor with a faust? Even so it's not an easy task.

Its actually surprisingly easy to pull off a faust... or make noteable gains in other areas. You should read everyone's replies if you're actually interested in discussing the issue.

Can't you effectively soft-cap upgrades now? Just give them a limit. That's sounds like a better short term fix rather than making them completely useless.

Do what Salan did before... except now you create one new resource... call it whatever you like (weapon points for instance) and give each player a limited supply and make upgrades cost weapon points.

However, it will be an idea doom to fail because it would just make players buy the most cost-effective units (that don't need upgrades to be effective) and then spend on the most cost-effective upgrades... which pushes gameplay into another dimension.

As it is, you have to balance MP, MU, FU, Availability Pool & possible doctrines buffs. I'm not too sure how adding another variable will cause.

[Tymathee]

3 man kch may need a slight decrease but 4 man kch need some change, when all u have as infantry are 4 man kch and u lulz at hmgs and bars, something is wrong

[DarkSoldierX]

Let me all remind you that the 50mun faust is improper for him.

The reason of the faust chance was to reduce spam on volks.

The norm KCH is ALOT harder to spam than to spam on volks.

Look at falls faust, its still 35 mu 2 use.

[PonySlaystation]

cloud, your ideas are all terrible.

90 muni for kch would not be unbalanced. You'd still pick the cheaper grens for long range dps.

Easy to pull of a faust? You do realize most vehicles have almost twice the range of a faust. A competent player will never get hit by a faust or sticky, well maybe once if there is a pathing error, but far form often.

One volk squad and one pak is the same pop as one m8. Killing both of those with a single m8 is far from easy. Again you're overestimating and exaggerating.

[Mysthalin]

90 muni for kch would not be unbalanced. You'd still pick the cheaper grens for long range dps.

Easy to pull of a faust? You do realize most vehicles have almost twice the range of a faust. A competent player will never get hit by a faust or sticky, well maybe once if there is a pathing error, but far form often.

One volk squad and one pak is the same pop as one m8. Killing both of those with a single m8 is far from easy. Again you're overestimating and exaggerating.

1) When's the last time you saw somebody fight infantry on infantry at long range, lol?
2) Name one vehicle that has "almost twice the range" of a panzerfaust (hint, there's only one in the allied arsenal and it's not exactly going to be sniping the volks anytime soon).
3) Stickies and fausts are two completely different things in how they are pulled off.
4) You're the one exaggerating everything. 1 Percent damage on pershing from a faust? Since when does the Pershing have 10k health?