Allies suffer far to much from attrition

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[SpaceHamster]

So yah maybe I am completely new to EiR but I notice that it follows the same gameplay patterns with VCoH except you cant rienforce or build,

Now with my many games played with americans in VCoH I realise that a rifle squad cannot survive one engagement, even with BAR's as all it takes is a tank, a pack of volks, or kch/grens with snipers to completely force rifles out of the field,

Thats no problem for me as I have vetted rifles to survive engagements longer, what bothers me is rifles is the standard infantry unit you can pick, you dont have units like grenadiers or knight cross to choose from and thus you have to have more rifles then your enemy (which is kinda hard) to make them survive engagements or your gonna have to pull back to a safe zone or a triage center.

The wehrmacht for there lesser trained troops have medkits, what certain docs like american armor company lack (I am not implying to give armor company infantry some sort of health regen).

I am not saying to make rifles cheaper, or make them stronger, or reduce popcap,

What I am trying to do is introduce from old COH the medic station,

same as usual pick up 6 bodies and you get a rifle squad (non upgraded of course) should be half the cost of a triage center, and allows the rifles produced from the med station not to count towards a platoon (so you cant get em back even if retreated) or have popcap,

Now you might be thinking "gee man no popcap? thats huge for a 25 popcap starting game!" well its quite obvious that these rifles have no at weapons what so ever (not even stickies) so they are pretty small fries and easy vet food for axis,

What they are meant to do is help attrition losses with the american 6 man rifle squads (as it is nigh impossible not to lose a member from a squad unlike Wehrmacht counterparts), and do remember these losses they are taken from do not come back like in VCoH so you cant have unlimited amounts of riflemen,

True you might say "hey that guy went over the popcap having *insert number* extra rifles with armor support!" So I will say that the most a medic station (or multiple medic stations) can give is 3 rifles to prevent abuse of the system for recuperating squads.

Some might say "if americans get medics so should wehrmacht" But I think americans need it more with all the high number low health per model units they have.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, this should have been put in suggestions (But since I was outlining a problem I thought it was better in balanced).

[8thRifleRegiment]

There is another mod called OMG, which has this medic station implemented for both sides and it creates retarded gameplay of un-endning un upgarded infantry and it doesnt solve attrition at all.

[SpaceHamster]

There is another mod called OMG, which has this medic station implemented for both sides and it creates retarded gameplay of un-endning un upgarded infantry and it doesnt solve attrition at all.

what does OMG stand for? Never heard of that mod, maybe I will try it out.

I understand that it creates retarded gameplay of un-ending unupgraded infantry but its very easy to kill medics now (60 hp I believe) and dead bodies dont last very long to be picked up and you can easily kill the medic station and there are far better choices to pick then it if you dont like the option of having one,

Though I cant say its balanced as I havent tested it out on the mod.

[AmPM]

Allies don't need it, you can out attrition Axis easily.

[smurfORnot]

operation market garden.

[Mister Schmidt]

Allies suffer from attrition?

When you can have roughly twice the number of Rifle Squads compared to Gren squads?

I think you should play a little more before you go posting radical ideas like this up.

Also, as a side-note, afaik a reinforcement mechanic is not recommended in EiR, due to persistence. It's a nice idea, but probably not really needed.

[BigDick]

dunno but when ur reffering to vcoh i know much more strats based arround T2 medbunker grenspam than arround riflespam with medstation

not saying that medstation and vcoh med bunker wouldn't be an option for eir doctines (but need to be expensive and new squads a bit like OMG disabled infantry)

[TheVolskinator]

The issue stems from the equal popcounts on the field.

It doesnt matter if you have twice the number of rifles in your company as your opponent has grens. Because you start with the same popcount, in your average starting call-in youre going to have 2 grens vs 2 rifles. The grens will (barring upgrades) roll the riflemen with close to no losses, and still be around to duplicate the feat.

So, IRL you had a company of 200 well trained Grenadiers vs 2 companies of 400 green U.S. troops. If both companies of U.S. troops attacked together, you could overwhelm the more skilled Grenadiers. But you can only send 200 men to attack at a time; youre forced to feed your troops to them peicemeil, and without a greater number of rifles to oppose the grenadiers squad to squad AT THE SAME TIME in combat, you simply lose to the higher DPS output the grens can generate and the more damage they can suffer. BASICALLY, you cant have 'two men to his one' youre forced to fight man to man with equal relative body counts, and his men are BETTER then yours man for man.

One also has to take into account the fact that the allies are the ones generally forced to 'close the gap' and charge the enemy in cover, since youll lose if you try to fight cover to cover at long range.

[AmPM]

The issue stems from the equal popcounts on the field.

It doesnt matter if you have twice the number of rifles in your company as your opponent has grens. Because you start with the same popcount, in your average starting call-in youre going to have 2 grens vs 2 rifles. The grens will (barring upgrades) roll the riflemen with close to no losses, and still be around to duplicate the feat.

So, IRL you had a company of 200 well trained Grenadiers vs 2 companies of 400 green U.S. troops. If both companies of U.S. troops attacked together, you could overwhelm the more skilled Grenadiers. But you can only send 200 men to attack at a time; youre forced to feed your troops to them peicemeil, and without a greater number of rifles to oppose the grenadiers squad to squad AT THE SAME TIME in combat, you simply lose to the higher DPS output the grens can generate and the more damage they can suffer. BASICALLY, you cant have 'two men to his one' youre forced to fight man to man with equal relative body counts, and his men are BETTER then yours man for man.

One also has to take into account the fact that the allies are the ones generally forced to 'close the gap' and charge the enemy in cover, since youll lose if you try to fight cover to cover at long range.

Not true, 6 rifles vs 4 Grens, so you have a 50% numerical advantage.

Also, Rifles do not fill the same role as Grens, Rifles are akin to Volks. Grens are stronger and cost more accordingly. If the enemy is Gren heavy, use something other than Rifles to kill them if you don't want to use BARs. Most tanks/LVs/Arty/Support does this job rather well. Use the BAR to prevent flanking of your HMG or to keep Schreks from charging your tank.

EIRR is about using proper counters, feeding something into it's hard counter is stupid.

[hans]

allies are good, axis are good the world is good tbh

no srsly remove the doctrines and its balanced maybe, and then it will be a good mod+ we remove all units and just fight trees against buildings and bushes or so

NATURE against HOUSES

[EIRRMod]

allies are good, axis are good the world is good tbh

no srsly remove the doctrines and its balanced maybe, and then it will be a good mod+ we remove all units and just fight trees against buildings and bushes or so

NATURE against HOUSES

Houses are OP

[SpaceHamster]

Houses are OP

Bocages need to be nerfed as well,

Allies suffer from attrition?

When you can have roughly twice the number of Rifle Squads compared to Gren squads?

I think you should play a little more before you go posting radical ideas like this up.

I think I can attempt to do that with terror volks since they pretty much turn into mirror units with the mp44 scoped.

Unless im wrong, Rifles are as good as volks in this game and grens are the better armed infantry, UNLESS theres been stat changes to the riflemen they are no better then volks until they close the gap to S(short) range which is pretty hard to do with out taking losses, or consuming time from moving cover to cover,

Though I can understand why this idea is radical, units produced through the map should not be in the allies hands (since many people already know most you need is at guns, rifles, and m10s to have maximum effect in games now).

It's just the game mechanics arent made for americans and wehrmacht to be given ALL the units in the game because wehrmacht in general have more options then the allies to work with, so I wanted to give allies another option to play with.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Hamsters are OP

[Demon767]

if i can remember correctly, when doctrines were removed, we experienced the worst low in players.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Houses are OP

Haybales are OP, Houses need a buff.

[Smokaz]

For starters, I would assume there is a way around every problem as you join EIRR. Assuming its not your fault is a poor incentive for learning the game. I noticed you retreated all your vet 0 units at the drop of a eye when we played, this is considered poor etiquette towards your teammates among the better players. I for example avoid playing with people I know will "melt down" and try to save their vet.

[SpaceHamster]

For starters, I would assume there is a way around every problem as you join EIRR. Assuming its not your fault is a poor incentive for learning the game. I noticed you retreated all your vet 0 units at the drop of a eye when we played, this is considered poor etiquette towards your teammates among the better players. I for example avoid playing with people I know will "melt down" and try to save their vet.

True enough I retreat 3 man rifle squads only because i wish to free up popcap in order to summon other units but dont you agree grenadiers and riflemen should not be worth the same popcap?

One unit performs better then the other, we cannot say they are both equal (though we can point out they are both 'different') else how would we compare volks grenadiers and riflemen?

I remember in VCoH grenadiers were 8 popcap to stop there from being an abundance of them, now it is 4 for some reason, making volks entirely useless for late game as they are 5 popcap, cost an extra manpower upkeep, and generally dont perform as well as grenadiers (unless equipped with mp40s). It is VERY EASY to pop your self up to a high popcap as americans because americans tend to have one unit do alot of jobs thus causing there to be more models to benefit this role, of course causing there to be extremely low healthed models that WILL die no matter how good you are with your micro(as even losing 1 member causes the squads effectiveness to go way down). This was fixed with 'rienforcing'.

Wehrmacht units are better at staying on the field which is indicated through there medpacks, bunker/halftrack rienforce, and higher health compared to american units, stationary defense (pak, flak88) and any unit retreated would take considerable amount of time to get back on the field (high cost for replacing mg crew members, longer rienforce times, etc.) in a mod where theres only offmap unit, this destroys wehrmachts and panzer elites main weakness.

Now obviously I am not going anywhere with this but what I am trying to point out is that the axis forces are focused to stay on the field longer then the allies can, while the allies are supposed to retreat and get back to the fight with better equipment, obviously that cant happen in an offmap only combat.

Also, I didn't post this because of the game we had, this was posted before we even started the match. And I did not come out of a game where I 'lost and felt butthurt' to make this topic, it was a general idea that added a new incentive to the game with out breaking the whole "attrition warfare" thing,

I believe that medic stations should not be "Super OP" as it is far to easy to kill medics and take into account how many times you see dying soldier around and not gibbed,headshotted,crushed,dead ones lying around. Even if the medic station is out of range it is not like the bodies are getting picked up by them selves

Allies suffer from attrition?

When you can have roughly twice the number of Rifle Squads compared to Gren squads?

Also here are the costs for the units I compared:

Grenadiers 240 manpower - 5 popcap
Riflemen 200 manpower - 5 popcap
Volks 195 manpower - 5 popcap

So lets say I got 6 grenadier squads, I would have to pay 1440 manpower as my total cost

If i got 6 riflemen squads, I would have to pay 1200 manpower as my total cost, leaving space for only one additional rifle squad(or 240 mnapower If you want to get something else) to match the cost effectiveness, and this is with out the upgrades!

With my VCoH testing, Grenadiers will beat riflemen at mid and long range, the only way riflemen can win is they take VERY minimal damage while closing the distance with the grenadiers (meaning they gotta be shooting at something else or they practically missed every shot they fired at the rifles).

But to be honest volks cost 280, and rifles cost 270 while grenadiers costed only 300 to field but this was after upgrading to the kriegs barracks and getting the building (which doesnt sound as cheap as I say it).

Now I would like your opinion if you wanted non upgraded troops would you pick the grenadiers or the volks grenadiers, your opinion will help me in deciding my opinion on the matter of my 'poor incentive' gameplay as you might be right, but nobody said your 100% correct.

[Smokaz]

I'm going take the time to reply, usually I just disregard new players completely. Consider yourself blessed

True enough I retreat 3 man rifle squads only because i wish to free up popcap in order to summon other units but dont you agree grenadiers and riflemen should not be worth the same popcap?

"Wish to free up popcap"

It's perfectly logical from the viewpoint of "I dont need scissor right now, I need stone".

Thats not how EIRR works. A part of succeding is being able to make units pay for themselves even when they are ill suited to the task. Retreating units before 1 man for axis and 2 men for rifles is considered bad play. A lot of GOOD play is achieved when the 1 man shrek or 2 man rifle squad achieve something ingame.

Examples: Finishing off tank, getting off sticky, beating off another weak capper in the back)

One unit performs better then the other, we cannot say they are both equal (though we can point out they are both 'different') else how would we compare volks grenadiers and riflemen?

By cost and how they perform. Grenadiers are ill suited to disable tanks, their grenades are weaker, rifles are better at recrewing. It's quite balanced. You'll experience the downsides of grenadiers soon enough I expect and trust me when I say you're not the first new player to come to EIRR and suggest that rifles are weak.

I remember in VCoH grenadiers were 8 popcap to stop there from being an abundance of them, now it is 4 for some reason, making volks entirely useless for late game as they are 5 popcap, cost an extra manpower upkeep, and generally dont perform as well as grenadiers (unless equipped with mp40s). It is VERY EASY to pop your self up to a high popcap as americans because americans tend to have one unit do alot of jobs thus causing there to be more models to benefit this role, of course causing there to be extremely low healthed models that WILL die no matter how good you are with your micro(as even losing 1 member causes the squads effectiveness to go way down). This was fixed with 'rienforcing'.

Wehrmacht units are better at staying on the field which is indicated through there medpacks, bunker/halftrack rienforce, and higher health compared to american units, stationary defense (pak, flak88) and any unit retreated would take considerable amount of time to get back on the field (high cost for replacing mg crew members, longer rienforce times, etc.) in a mod where theres only offmap unit, this destroys wehrmachts and panzer elites main weakness.

Rant rant rant.. some irrelevant for eirr (reinforcement).

Now obviously I am not going anywhere with this but what I am trying to point out is that the axis forces are focused to stay on the field longer then the allies can, while the allies are supposed to retreat and get back to the fight with better equipment, obviously that cant happen in an offmap only combat.

Oh gee, I thought you were
Observations are like these are helpful, you should seek to test them on the field.

Also, I didn't post this because of the game we had, this was posted before we even started the match. And I did not come out of a game where I 'lost and felt butthurt' to make this topic, it was a general idea that added a new incentive to the game with out breaking the whole "attrition warfare" thing,

Not saying you were!

I believe that medic stations should not be "Super OP" as it is far to easy to kill medics and take into account how many times you see dying soldier around and not gibbed,headshotted,crushed,dead ones lying around. Even if the medic station is out of range it is not like the bodies are getting picked up by them selves

They have a working medic-casualty system over at OMG, you should go test it. I dont think its planned for EIRR.

Whether or not I'd pick rifles or grenadiers, is irrelevent. You know why? Because I dont have that choice. I cant choose between them, I can choose to play US or wehr and thats a helluva lot more to decide about than just rifles and grenadiers.

[SpaceHamster]

Whether or not I'd pick rifles or grenadiers, is irrelevent. You know why? Because I dont have that choice. I cant choose between them, I can choose to play US or wehr and thats a helluva lot more to decide about than just rifles and grenadiers.

Ahhh what I meant to say was if you would pick Volks or grenadiers, my bad for the miscommunication  

Also I take into account that recrewed weapons get the health from the previous squad, essentially a gun recrewed by grenadiers has more health then a gun recrewed by riflemen(or volks).

[Smokaz]

I think once you figure out how the doctrine system realllllyyyy works and the way it suggests how to play the game, you will have that answer for yourself. Most buffs = Choice unit

But generally people pick grenadiers for AI combat based around medikits and fighting with mg42s in the back and just call in volks to recrew paks, 81mm and mg42s.  Shreks are useful too but a lot of people don't like them. A lot of people like the 1 lmg medikit grenadier, which I think is kinda fail.

Volk-spam is quite popular and works with all three wehr doctrines, but you have to pick the right doctrine choices for it. It's strength is the low risk of losing a individual squad because the upgrades are cheaper.

Unupgraded volks without buffs are not combat units in eirr, imo.