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Author Topic: Weapon cache update x2  (Read 59987 times)
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Poppi Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1080


« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2011, 09:12:50 am »

Man I'm glad I'm not playing right now. This sounds terrible
its actually not as bad as people are putting it out to be
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Demon767 Offline
Warmap Betatester
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6190



« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2011, 09:15:20 am »

its actually not as bad as people are putting it out to be

Don't know if stupid or trolling.
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Generalleutnant of The Reichs Wolves

Nevergetsputonlistguy767
hans Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3497



« Reply #122 on: December 16, 2011, 09:16:07 am »

Don't know if stupid or trolling.

Don't know if stupid or trolling.
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Also, bad analogy ground, My vegetables never pissed on my ego when I decided they defeated me and gave up on dessert.
RoyalHants Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2109



« Reply #123 on: December 16, 2011, 09:19:40 am »

It ain't that bad main difference, no more 10 KCH rape companies
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Yeah calbanes, I mean - some people like smokaz are still yet to win a single game, even though they've been around here for years.

BigDick
Guest
« Reply #124 on: December 16, 2011, 09:22:17 am »

yeah mister "i spam AT guns and churchills" royal dodge

no wonder that you does not find that "bad" while spending ressources for tanks that only gets repair kits and AT guns   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Don't know if stupid or trolling.

its poppi he plays US only  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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smurfORnot Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4715



« Reply #125 on: December 16, 2011, 09:27:20 am »

It ain't that bad main difference, no more 10 KCH rape companies

4 man KCH cost 6 cache,LMG42 on grens cost 6 cache,guess which one I will take  Roll Eyes
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Tymathee Offline
Donator
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Posts: 9741



« Reply #126 on: December 16, 2011, 09:33:38 am »

RR = 8 cache
2 x schreck storms = 8 cache

-_-
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"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"

Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.
Poppi Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1080


« Reply #127 on: December 16, 2011, 10:07:43 am »

yeah mister "i spam AT guns and churchills" royal dodge

no wonder that you does not find that "bad" while spending ressources for tanks that only gets repair kits and AT guns   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

its poppi he plays US only  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Just trolling.
 i saw the values they are pretty bad. 
And im all for anti spams.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 04:39:03 pm by Poppi » Logged
RoyalHants Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2109



« Reply #128 on: December 16, 2011, 10:18:10 am »

Lol wut i have 100 cache??
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smurfORnot Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4715



« Reply #129 on: December 16, 2011, 10:30:03 am »

yes,and everything(or most stuff) cost double than it did before. Like I said,assault is 8 cache,LMG42 is 6 etc.
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Smokaz Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 11418



« Reply #130 on: December 16, 2011, 10:30:15 am »

Actually mysth & smokaz you are both incorrect in your assessment for the need of a 'weapons cache'. The reason why it exists (or was supposed to exist) was that not all upgrades could be balanced through pricing. Pricing is done solely on the performance of just that one upgrade. Ergo it does not keep into account the potential problem that arises when that upgrade gets used on a large scale.

The panzerfaust was a perfect example of this, at 30 Mun and 2 uses, the price properly reflected its usefulness on a single volks squad. When people started building companies that consisted of nothing but volksgrenadiers and panzerfausts however, it became apparent there was a problem. To raise the pricing would be a mistake, since you would also punish those players that only had 1 or 2 panzerfaust upgrades, and you would actually stray away from the ideal, 'balanced price'. Thus we needed to come up with a new mechanism that would allow us to prevent a player from building companies that existed of 'excessive' amounts of certain upgrades. (Since it couldn't possibly be balanced through pricing) It's sort of a dynamic 'hard-cap' as you will.

Also, through the weapons cache we were enabled to lower the pool costs of unupgraded elite infantry, allowing more company variety, while still keeping elite infantry with upgrades from being spammed.

What we have now however is not the weapons cache system originally envisioned, since it's also including ALL those upgrades that are not in any way problematic when fielded in large numbers. (Repair kits, medkits, normal grenades, etc) Which effectively hampers its efficiency as a system, because those desiring to spam JUST 25 panzerfausts with stugs and support weapons can still do it, while others who may be building a more or less balanced company can end up being punished.

Why is a company of panzerfaust volks and p4s a problem if the components are priced correctly?

Why is the 16th panzerfaust so much better than the 4th or the 5th?
Can you explain? No, no you can't. The reasoning behind this cache system is both shallow and pedantic.

What upgrades IS weapons cache supposed to dictate? Why is assault such a problem that cannot be fixed by price?
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SlippedHerTheBigOne: and i have no repairkits
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smurfORnot Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4715



« Reply #131 on: December 16, 2011, 10:42:16 am »

assault was only problem with middle T4 as said by many.
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tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #132 on: December 16, 2011, 10:43:04 am »

Why is a company of panzerfaust volks and p4s a problem if the components are priced correctly?

Why is the 16th panzerfaust so much better than the 4th or the 5th?
Can you explain? No, no you can't. The reasoning behind this cache system is both shallow and pedantic.

What upgrades IS weapons cache supposed to dictate? Why is assault such a problem that cannot be fixed by price?

Smokaz, are you honestly saying you do not see the difference between a company with 4 or 5 volks with faust and a company with 16 with faust?

If you do not, it is hard for us to take you seriously in this discussion. I respect your opinions and actually listen to them, but his looks like you are on a rant, because it doesn't even make sens.
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Quote
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I'm not going to lie Tig, 9/10 times you open your mouth, I'm overwhelmed with the urge to put my foot in it.
LeoPhone Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 0


« Reply #133 on: December 16, 2011, 10:55:36 am »

Isn't it simply more obvious the upgrade is unbalanced when used en masse?

a single faust has not a big enough impact in the game to notice. but it can still be super cost effective.
a single 30 mu faust is still epic. it does almost as much dmg as a schreck, but you have a 100% chance you will hit. and it has large range.
remember we buffed the faust in EIR as well. in vcoh the super range and accuracy of the faust isn't such an issue because of the low dmg and higher price.
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Computer991 Offline
Donator
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Posts: 1219



« Reply #134 on: December 16, 2011, 11:04:49 am »

This whole Idea is retarded and just presents itself as a half ass attempt to try to balance a game further by creating another variable when all the tools needed are already there... Incremental cost for infantry upgrade, The incremental cost is there for repair kits and it works just fine This is just unwarranted and very poorly thought out.
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skaffa Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 3130


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #135 on: December 16, 2011, 11:12:10 am »

WC makes things too complicated.

Just allow every relevant inf upgrade to be purchased 10 times for the normal price. If you want more than 10 you pay 2x the standard price.

Relevant upgrades are the ones that become annoying when spammed in huge numbers. Like assault nades, bars, piats etc. Limiting these is as far as I know the goal of a WC like implementation.

Leave out the upgrades on inf that dont matter if spammed, like nades on rifles, medkits etc.
Also leave out tank/light vehicle upgrades and repairs.

If you still want to 'spam' certain things you are still able to but you will literally pay for it.

Numbers can be tweaked.
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Quote from: deadbolt
bad luck skaffa>  creates best and most played eir maps
                      >  hated for creating best and most played eir maps

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47k new all time record?

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Don't knock it til uve tried it bitchface, this isn't anything like salads version. Besides u said a semois conversion would never work, now look that's the most played map, ohgodwhy.jpg r u map lead
Smokaz Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 11418



« Reply #136 on: December 16, 2011, 11:34:28 am »

@tank, leo
Its likewise hard for me - and others aren't exactly jumping in to agree with you - when you say "cant you see the difference between unit 4 and unit 12" when you tank dont argue your point ($$$) and Leophone argues with the following:

PRICE & DETAILS OF THE UPGRADE

You cant combine 10 fausts into Megatron, maaaan.

I believe there is a concept in corporate business world roughly called "brain drain"? Wink You guys need me to point this out, it seems.

SO:
Is there some mystical value here that is being used without being mentioned?

Because whether or not my enemy has 5 mp40 volks or 4 lmgs, dont matter to me.
Whether or not he has 10 mp40 volks, or 6 lmg grens makes zero difference to me.

But it might matter to him - because he has DOCTRINE BUFFS. And a personal conviction about how his army should be like. And skill around certain units more than others.

And what about when people have to ATTACK defense timers?
You're expected to - even when you are equally skilled to defending player - take more losses assaulting a good position. Its just how territory and being "dug in" works. Thus all sensible players will be grabbing less support weapons and more assault, calliopes and flamers/assault infantry. Anyone surprised by this? Would you criticize players for focusing their company like this? Oh and guess what: People defending grab more support weapons?

Some companies are BREAKTHROUGH companies. Whether breakthrough upgrades and units are priced correctly vs more standard equipment seems the #1 deciding factor in their success. Others are built for defending or slow advances/attrition. Whats so hard to accept about the prices of the respective units balancing it all out? You will never control player skill, but now you are actively trying to fuck with people's decision making. It will fail and render the mod less fun, less engaging.

You guys give me a hard time, but I should give you even harder. Because not enough thought has gone into this. If they have been discussed at any level internally there is no showing of it in how things are being done.

Here's the candy list you can eat it up:

1.  How long have we have had more or less guaranteed R+/Me mode start? What type of units generally compete for map? Oh right. The strongest one. The most aggressive ones. Now we're adding limitations that we think are spam limitations which actually is partly a meeting engagement metagame syndrome.

WHO OF THE DEVS MENTIONED, or thought of this? I'm sorry but your member groundfire has no showing of it in his posts. There is no reasoning behind "limiting spam" and NO intelligence around what is promoting this lesser game that so many otherwise skilled and calm players cry about from time to time, including myself. We all cry about bullshit sometimes, doesnt mean we need to change it.

2.  Your goddamn doctrines suggest to spam whatever is buffed. End of argument, get used to it. Balanced builds mean that the doctrine has to buff everything - and who in EIRR really wants this?

3.  The brainbaby of Groundfire, the cache system, does not take into account the doctrine buffs at all. It cannot currently in its form. Sorry, but its the truth?


Heres what you do, Tank/EIRRMOD:

Increase price of assault by 20 munitions for blitzkrieg doctrine.
Forget about this cache system, and get in attack/defend timer asap. Like asap zulu neger degos fast. Make sure it starts with a 2 minute timer. Looks like it should be something like that for axis anyways right now?

Enjoy a shocking change in what type of company people will build.

Come back and tell me I was right. Then give me that asscave i covet so much so we can avoid these embarassing 2 steps forward 3 steps back rambo changes, because this is something I shot down almost immediatly and would have shot down pre-emptively if I had the imagination to think groundfire would go through with his zombie project activation after having gathered almost zero input on cache pricing and knowing himself that his starting numbers might be horribly off or plain wrongly entered in.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 11:38:10 am by Smokaz » Logged
RikiRude Offline
Donator
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Posts: 4376



« Reply #137 on: December 16, 2011, 11:58:13 am »

I've just got one question, how come my company that spams panthers and lmg grens is good to go, but my companies that i thought were pretty balanced have been totally fucked?
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brn4meplz Offline
Misinformation Officer
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Posts: 6952


« Reply #138 on: December 16, 2011, 12:25:35 pm »

Because instead of having high cache costs on typical spam upgrades we've got mediocre cache costs on every upgrade. Balanced companies that take an assortment of things are finding it expensive especially considering some units have a Cache cost too. I'm not gonna pay 4 cache for an AP Round HMG personally.
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He thinks Tactics is a breath mint

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Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
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Posts: 18379


« Reply #139 on: December 16, 2011, 12:38:39 pm »

WC makes things too complicated.

Just allow every relevant inf upgrade to be purchased 10 times for the normal price. If you want more than 10 you pay 2x the standard price.

Relevant upgrades are the ones that become annoying when spammed in huge numbers. Like assault nades, bars, piats etc. Limiting these is as far as I know the goal of a WC like implementation.

Leave out the upgrades on inf that dont matter if spammed, like nades on rifles, medkits etc.
Also leave out tank/light vehicle upgrades and repairs.

If you still want to 'spam' certain things you are still able to but you will literally pay for it.

Numbers can be tweaked.

Yep, this is pretty much what I and others have been saying as well. Though there seems to be a debate going on between those who think it should affect ALL upg and those who think it should only affect some. Honestly, we could just take the easy route and hardcap those few upgrades that are problematic. Have a 'stock' system where if you buy a lot of a given item this item can go 'out of stock' (essentially a hard cap) It could even be applied faction wide so that one player hording panzerfausts would affect everyone else's ability to get them. (And potentially interlink with the warmap, that could be fun)
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