HVAP Rounds on a 75mm Sherman

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[InecatInDunare]

Hi guys,

We know all that when you up gun the Sherman, it looses splash dmg against infantry(it is less effective). My question is if I use HVAP Rounds on a normal 75mm Sherman, does the splash dmg is effected? Is like I would use a 76mm Sherman? Or the Sherman continues to be good against infantry and in addition to that could take on a panzer 4(like a up gun Sherman would do)? Also If I use an up gun Sherman with HVAP Rounds it will loose further more effectiveness against infantry? I really don't want for my Sherman to became a HellCat with less speed but harder armor.

[BigDick]

Hi guys,

We know all that when you up gun the Sherman, it looses splash dmg against infantry(it is less effective). My question is if I use HVAP Rounds on a normal 75mm Sherman, does the splash dmg is effected?

no, and i think the 75mm sherman isn't even affected at all of HVAP

Is like I would use a 76mm Sherman?

no, 76mm gaves (if HVAP would be working on 75mm) usually much more pen. boost than 33% upgunned sherman is similar to m10 (penetration) with less damage than m10 but almost p4 splash

[jackmccrack]

HVAP does not work with 75mm Shermans

[InecatInDunare]

In this case, does HVAP makes the 76mm Sherman less effective against infantry? Or the pershing?

[Hicks58]

The 76mm splash is unaffected by HVAP. The Pershing recieves it's vCoH HVAP though, which reduces it's splash considerably. On the flip side, your chance to penetrate a Tiger goes from 50% up to 107%-108%, not including range modifiers.

Penetrating a Panther also goes to respectable levels (Around 84% off the top of my head) and it's impossible to bounce off a PIV or below. You'll also have around a 50%-60% chance to penetrate a Jagd with HVAP, but you really shouldn't be trying that with a Pershing unless you've pulled off an epic flank... To which you'll be hitting it's arse and penetrating anyway.

All percentages mentioned here are rough approximates but the main point is that HVAP WILL give you a considerable boost to your AT efficiency in return for the reduction in AI effectiveness on the Pershing. By the way, the Pershing is the only tank/vehicle that has a drawback to HVAP. Everything else is positives.

[InecatInDunare]

Hmm..nice. Would a Sherman with HVAP Rounds be able to penetrate a Tiger or Panther front armor? Because if it does I'm strongly considering dropping the Pershing from my company and to go for Calling It In.I'm not talking about the Sherman to actually take alone a Tiger or Panther, but with the help of another tank or ATG to be able to hold his ground with honor .

[Hicks58]

Base chance for a 76mm to penetrate a Tiger is 45.13%

The range modifiers with HVAP bonuses are as follows:

Long: 1.11454 - 50.29%
Medium: 1.2236 - 55.22%
Short: 1.33 - 60.02%

At long range, it's a coin flip as to if you'll penetrate. At close range it's a good chance but the Tiger will maul you through pure DPS.

It'll be able to pull off a fighting retreat or a support role, but relying on it would be foolhardy.

Panther is 36.49% chance to penetrate... I don't even have to do the math to tell you that engaging a Panther from the front is still a bad idea even with HVAP. Best penetration is at close range for 48.53% - To which the Panther will have pulled you to pieces. Avoid or use the Sherman as a meat shield/blocker for a better AT piece.

[InecatInDunare]

Yes, but I was hopping that with HVAP Rounds two Sherman's would be able to fight off a Panther or Tiger. Not from the front of course, but with two you shouldn't have a problem to shot and penetrate from the sides, right? To reach the back of a Tiger or Panther is pretty hard, especially if the opposing player is good. But to shoot them on their side armor is not that hard. And if I drop the Pershing and go for Call It In, it will compensate the lack of splash dmg from the 75mm with increase accuracy. At least I'm hopping.

[Ahnungsloser]

Tankedit: No unrelated pics please

[Unkn0wn]

There's no such thing as side armour fyi, there's only front and rear. Rear armour begins at about the middle of a tank's side.

[Hicks58]

Two HVAP 76mm Shermans will effectively beat down a Tiger. However, this is 24 dedicated pop on field and you'll have to separate the Tiger from it's support for this to work, which isn't as simple as it sounds.

Also, side armour does not exist. There is frontal armour, and rear armour. Hitting a target from the side simply gives you a better chance to catch the back half of the hitbox, and hit the rear armour.

Getting the flank on a Tiger isn't too hard with a pair of Shermans if you go from either side and maintain around medium distance. Panther's are much harder due to being faster than you.

If you aren't going to use a Pershing, put the 3 points on something other than Calling it in. I've used Calling it in and it's only really good for units with a high rate of fire tbh. Try out using HVAP T17's for example.

If your intent on using Shermans, bait the Tiger or Panther with the Sherman into an ATG's field of fire.

[TheVolskinator]

Base chance for a 76mm to penetrate a Tiger is 45.13%

The range modifiers with HVAP bonuses are as follows:

Long: 1.11454 - 50.29%
Medium: 1.2236 - 55.22%
Short: 1.33 - 60.02%

At long range, it's a coin flip as to if you'll penetrate. At close range it's a good chance but the Tiger will maul you through pure DPS.

It'll be able to pull off a fighting retreat or a support role, but relying on it would be foolhardy.

Panther is 36.49% chance to penetrate... I don't even have to do the math to tell you that engaging a Panther from the front is still a bad idea even with HVAP. Best penetration is at close range for 48.53% - To which the Panther will have pulled you to pieces. Avoid or use the Sherman as a meat shield/blocker for a better AT piece.

Doesnt the upgun convey the same penetration modifiers as the M10 cannon, the only difference being the M10's 3 inch gun deals more damage per shell and ofc had 45 range as opposed to 40? In which case, all the hoopla about 'ZOMG TDs > PANTHERS!' is kinda meh in its grounding?

The 75mm shouldnt even try to dual with a P4 unless its an IST, and the 76mm is only there to give you a fighting chance. Unlike the TDs and axis Armor, your Shermans shouldnt be seeking out enemy tanks to play fisticuffs with.

[Ahnungsloser]

Doesnt the upgun convey the same penetration modifiers as the M10 cannon, the only difference being the M10's 3 inch gun deals more damage per shell and ofc had 45 range as opposed to 40?

The Upgunnes Sherman have the same penetration values as the normal M10 gun. With the HVAP round they also have the same penetration value.
The M4 Upgun deals 87.5 damage and the M10 deals 112.5 damage. The ranges for the M4 is 10/20/40 and the for the 10/25/45.

Look here:
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=18482.msg393277#msg393277

Edit:
The damage multiplier (+10% Damage for all tanks, additionally +15% for Pershing and the addtionally and +10 Damage for the  M8 Greyhound) are not included in this calculation.

[Hicks58]

Just for you Volski, here's the standard M10 gun and the standard 76mm gun side by side, penetration at all ranges against the Tiger, and the Panther.

Tiger:

Long: M10 - 46.2% 76mm - 37.82%
Medium: M10 - 50.6% 76mm - 41.52%
Short: M10 - 55% 76mm - 45.12%

As you can see against the Tiger, the M10 is better by a sound 10% at all ranges (More or less)

Panther:

Long: M10 - 33.6% 76mm - 30.58%
Medium: M10 - 36.8% 76mm - 33.57%
Short: M10 - 40% 76mm - 36.49%

The M10 is still better against the Panther, but only by about 3% in each case. You can also see that the frontal penetration against Panther's is pretty junk. Flanking is your friend against Panthers, or lucky dice rolls.

These statistics are done all without any HVAP involved. The game changes a little when HVAP comes into play, but not by a huge deal.

EDIT:

Don't pay attention to Nung. The Upgunned Sherman does NOT have the same penetration as the M10. The range modifiers are similar, but their target tables are quite different.

[Ahnungsloser]

Don't pay attention to Nung. The Upgunned Sherman does NOT have the same penetration as the M10. The range modifiers are similar, but their target tables are quite different.

Are, there it goes. Thanks for the correction. Believed that there same. 

[Hicks58]

No worries fella. The only thing worse than no information is misinformation.

[Ahnungsloser]

Does anybody know the explicit bonuses of the M18 Hellcat ambush ability?
The extra 25% penetration and damaged (stacked with the ability extras) which comes with the
HVAP could be awesome.

[Hicks58]

HVAP and Hellcat ambush bonuses do not stack. Already tried going that line, when they tried to make it work it screwed with the Hellcat's penetration and you had hilarity such as the Hellcat bouncing off the front of a PIV with a cloaked HVAP shot (Which btw, statistically speaking should never happen).

[LeoPhone]

it does stack.

the problem was that HVAP was supposed to BUFF hellcat ambush, that broke the ambush bonus completely. now the hvap ambush bonus is simply gone.

[Hicks58]

So what modifiers are running at the same time when you hit something with a HVAP Hellcat in ambush?