Stens vs Heroic/soldier armor

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[Smokaz]

Inb4troll.

Note: A long time ago, KCH was buffed vs stens in vcoh to make them more worth it given how late they arrived compared to commandos. This was transferred to EIRR without much critique.

Much like the stuart/staghound modifier vs the early HQ-raping marder/inf ht armor type, this is not necessary in eirr.

If I was a really smart balance guy, I  would look at some of the sten modifiers which make them too cost-ineffective vs:

- Fallschirmjagers
- KCH

The modifiers skew the picture towards the unit themselves, not against who charges first or is in cover. Try playing a sten squad vs fg42 fsj or kch. Its not pretty!

FSJ/KCH already have the advantage that they can heal in the field for the most part, at least you can choose to do so instead of using ambulance for KCH with medikits. Commandos however can't skirmish, they need to commit to an engagement or avoid taking fire because A) they dont deal good dps moving B) they dont deal good dps at long range c) they have to go back to a triage/ccs to heal.

The skirmishing also favors these two axis squads heavily because they can actually chase, while commandos can only do really well when the enemy stands and fights.

[CafeMilani]

stens are better vs heroic armor than vs soldier armor

[pqumsieh]

Let's see some numbers that demonstrate your point. I free with your position smokaz so long as the numbers are in line. I too feel the
Modifiers of commandos are outdated.

[smurfORnot]

FSJ/KCH already have the advantage that they can heal in the field for the most part

FSJ need T3 unlock to heal,while mandos can have ccs. It's nice to heal anywhere,but there is a T3 price to that.

If I was a really smart balance guy, I  would look at some of the sten modifiers which make them too cost-ineffective vs:

- Fallschirmjagers
- KCH

dont FSJ have same armor as pgrens?

[Computer991]

FSJ need T3 unlock to heal,while mandos can have ccs. It's nice to heal anywhere,but there is a T3 price to that.

A T3 that's broken...

I can call on a shit load of medic boxes for the price of 1, I've seen every player use this bug tbh.

[smurfORnot]

actually,you dont even spendt all the boxes,and 3 boxes are only 50mun,so it's not like it insta win 
6 boxes,which equall 2 buys of it are more or less enough for whole game...

[Computer991]

I think about 3 or 4 medkits come in a box.... which has 2 or 3 uses? And your teammates can use it?

Now compare the WM medkit which is 3 or 2 uses I can't remember which cost 20 MU?

>.> It's really fucking cheap for it's cost, add the abuse ontop of that it's plain broken

[Smokaz]

@pqumumsieh

I thought the numbers were known to all. This perceived issue is not very advanced stats.
 
Vs FSJ soldier armor its like 0.5 damage and 0.75 accuracy.
Vs heroic its 0.6 damage and 0.8 accuracy.

These modifiers are some of the worst ingame - at least thompsons are not a joke vs soldier armor. DPS is strangled.

@smurf
I think you misunderstand what the advantage of the healing was here and its importance. Its just a factor combined with other things.

[smurfORnot]

I think about 3 or 4 medkits come in a box.... which has 2 or 3 uses? And your teammates can use it?

Now compare the WM medkit which is 3 or 2 uses I can't remember which cost 20 MU?

>.> It's really fucking cheap for it's cost, add the abuse ontop of that it's plain broken

well,yeah,but wehr dont need to spend T3 for it,and everyone can have it. Your allies dont use them most of the time from what I saw,even though you tell em where they are. Allies have more use of stuff like medic bunker/triage/ccs cuz they know it's there and they dont forget about it.
Point is,abuse doesnt help it much.When I drop em with first 2 falls squad,they last me whole game,and I have another one,which I dont use 90% of the time. So even if it was fixed,it wouldnt change anything for me,or I would have to spent MAX another 50mun which is not rly hard to find for 3rd medikit drop...

[BigDick]

dont FSJ have same armor as pgrens?

no not anymore pgrens was given inf armor and their health was bumped from 60->80 in trade to make them more surviveable vs tanks as 4 men squad

but bars and automatic rifles are now a good amount of stronger vs. pgrens

the falls are still the shitty 4 men 60hp soldier squad

no idea from where walrus is pulling this off that stens are underpowered vs. 4 men 60hp soldier squad
basically the stens were already buffed against PE (just not vs the falls)
but i would say make falls inf armor and give them 80hp as grens - done
where is the sense for armor types when there are no different modifiers and the squad just gets low hp low squadsize and no modifiers to compensate that

maybe he failed charging fg42 ambush squad in green cover with some doctrines or something

but as i said his goal is sten mando + officer spam with firefly and upgun tetrachspam as at

[smurfORnot]

with T3,you would had 95hp,ab armor falls :p
if rifle nades were made somehow better,this would sound like a nice list

[Hicks58]

no idea from where walrus is pulling this off that stens are underpowered vs. 4 men 60hp soldier squad

Take Soldier armour modifiers into account, and that's 4 men with 120hp per squad.

I've been trying to say for a while now Smokaz, that Stens are complete junk against Soldier and Heroic armour. This is because the damage modifiers totally bottleneck their DPS regardless of how much accuracy you want to throw on them (Speaking short range combat).

[BigDick]

Take Soldier armour modifiers into account, and that's 4 men with 120hp per squad.

I've been trying to say for a while now Smokaz, that Stens are complete junk against Soldier and Heroic armour. This is because the damage modifiers totally bottleneck their DPS regardless of how much accuracy you want to throw on them (Speaking short range combat).

kk 7.11*6*1.625=67.54469.3225 and 18.11*4*1=72.44

slight advantage for fg42 falls but maybe commandos are not the right unit to battle fg42 falls?

edith: bugfixed

[smurfORnot]

I still think that if you can smoke,close in and toss nade on falls,that you can beat them?

[BigDick]

with nade?  sure but that wasn't the question

but now tomsons ranger vs fg42 falls

(12.2*4+2*4.23)*1.625=93.0475 and 10.19*4*1=40.76

mr walrus already said something like that

so either tomson ranger horrible op or fg42 falls horrible underpowered  

[Mysthalin]

7.11*6*1.5833=67.544

Where does that 1.5833 come from?

(12.2*4+2*4.23)*1.625=93.0475

And that 1.625?

[Hicks58]

Commando Stens = 310MP 135MU.

Falls FG42 = 250MP 120MU.

Hrm...

[BigDick]

Where does that 1.5833 come from?

sry 1.625 bugfixed

thats a health modifier

[Mysthalin]

WHAT health modifier?

How is the health relevant to calculating raw DPS?

[smurfORnot]

but you get smoke on them,so you can escape or close in to stuff like mg etc. If you add sprint on falls,they cost 300mp,so they are about equal.
you get more stens since you have more squad members,so it's why they probably cost more. But I wont argue should they come down in cost or not,I'll let smarter people decide that.