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Author Topic: Addressing the viability of medium armour  (Read 45715 times)
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Hicks58 Offline
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« on: March 26, 2012, 12:17:45 pm »

Alright, we all know that medium armour is currently getting the shit kicked out of it. It's application is sparing in the current environment of EiRR where low cost high performance counters are abundant. The only reason they are currently in play at all is due to the lack of high level players, but as soon as they kick it up into full gear, they'll become fully redundant once more.

So here's what I suggest. First off I'll quote what I said in an alternate thread:

Tbf consider the following:

Increasing the price of ALL dedicated AT pieces so that they cost a substantial amount more than medium armour. This should leave them at the 250 - 300 Fuel range.

Then, alter crushing mechanics so upon ramming into a guy, the vehicle's speed is reduced to 0.

Finally, make said AT pieces lethal and specific at their jobs.

If you run medium armour, you've got flexibility, and a LOT of it. You run TD's primarily, then you'll need to find an alternative for your AI. Running one or two TD's will still be pretty viable as support for man packed/pushed AT options.

Also, with the crush mechanic alteration, you won't be able to run current style TD spam companies that will lolwut crush their way to victory after bagging every tank in sight.

This will form a base line. Mobile armoured based AT pieces will be costly, but efficient in their task. Medium armour will be capable of engaging other medium armour, and getting the drop on TD's with clever play. However, these TD's wont constantly be in their face, and their application will be more cautious.

One thing I will have to add is something AMPM said. A pop decrease to 10 for medium armour would make them less of a pain in the arse to put into play early on while pop is lower.

Oh, and as far as increasing the lethality of AT pieces go - High penetration, good reload, good accuracy. No damage changes, and for some, reduced accuracy vs infantry.

Feel free to add to this. I want to see medium armour worth something more than being a part of EiRR's signature bread and butter core.
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tank130 Offline
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2012, 12:37:56 pm »

A pop decrease to 10 for medium armour would make them less of a pain in the arse to put into play early on while pop is lower.

P4 - Anti Inf / LV = 12 Pop
Pak - AT = 5 Pop
Gen / Shrek - AT / Support - capping = 5 Pop
HMG - Suppress Inf for P4 - capping = 3 Pop

That's a good call-in for only 25 Pop
Two types of AT
Two AI

The only issue I see right now is the spamming of M10/M18, and that most of PE AT is fuel based and not affected by the Muni drop. (exceptions - 50MM and Tankbusters)

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CrazyWR Offline
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2012, 12:52:08 pm »

well that makes up for the fact that PE was the faction most raped by the previous resource drop, which was a fuel drop.
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tank130 Offline
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2012, 01:20:50 pm »

I disagree PE was raped....


But even if it was - Two wrongs do not make it right.
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CrazyWR Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3616


« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2012, 01:27:05 pm »

I agree, reset muni and fuel price to old numbers and remove pool and weapons cache ideas from your brains and things will be much improved.
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Tymathee Offline
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2012, 01:29:07 pm »

the issue with medium tanks is the viability of heavy hitting counters that all can field.

there's a lot of at that can be fielded and with med tanks only having 600 and it taking 500 to cripple, it only takes a few hits.

to be honest...i dont really know a way to fix it all. One of the biggest issues is because of the abundance of heavies, both sides became very good at fielding heavy counters, thus when meds come on, they're absolutely raped.

So, what to do? :shrug:
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Hicks58 Offline
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2012, 01:34:12 pm »

Heavy AT is cheap, and it's efficient. One of these things has to change for medium armour to stand a chance.
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TheVolskinator Offline
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2012, 01:40:59 pm »

There are too many heavy armor fanbois out there; I don't this idea will fly. But I myself support it; I detest heavy armor coys o TD spam companies and feel pretty put out that I'm one of only a few players that bothers to use Mediums--not to mention I usually get wtfpwnd because of it. I'm not so sure that the AT changes would be easy to add, since the US relies on its ATGs to reliably fight off tanks. The sheer variety of long-ranged Axis (fuel based) AT is also a monkey wrench.

This might also be the meta; very heavy support spam with dedicated AT/AI rather then a compisition of infantry and mediums backed up by a few sparse support weapons. The support heavy environment is very harsh towards infanty-and-mediums-companies.
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NightRain Offline
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2012, 02:09:42 pm »

Medium armor needs more viable buffs through Doctrines too is what I'm thinking.
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aeroblade56 Offline
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2012, 02:37:12 pm »

The reason i do not bring shermans is because yes it will deal damage to a p4 but most axis carry a panther or two. or maybe even a super heavy. what good is a sherman against those?? last 5 games i played all had a panther maybe saw 2 p4s max from some guy. and their are also harder things for the sherman to dodge for  instance.

 schreks are much more dangerous then bazooka.yes if you hit its rear it does great damage. assuming the player is going to be a noob and let you see his back to zooks.
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3rdCondor Offline
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2012, 02:46:21 pm »

The sherman tank is definitely fine where it is because it's already extremely useful. The P4 just suffers from not being worth the cost. If I can buy 2 panthers, and still have enough wiggle room with fuel, then why would I invest in a P4. I'm not suggesting a price change on the panther (because it was lowered for a good reason), but a pop, price, or some other type of patch modification for p4s should be tested and considered (which probably has already happened by the devs).
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8thRifleRegiment Offline
EIR Veteran
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 05:16:53 pm »

I disagree PE was raped....


But even if it was - Two wrongs do not make it right.

PE needs as much marders as possible as all ranged at is vulnerable to atg creep vs PAKs, PE is fine as is now, nothing needs to be chanegd from PE.
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Demon767 Offline
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 06:38:13 pm »

buff hetzer penetration. meant to be a TD, but bounces alot
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CrazyWR Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3616


« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 08:14:37 pm »

The reason i do not bring shermans is because yes it will deal damage to a p4 but most axis carry a panther or two. or maybe even a super heavy. what good is a sherman against those?? last 5 games i played all had a panther maybe saw 2 p4s max from some guy. and their are also harder things for the sherman to dodge for  instance.

 schreks are much more dangerous then bazooka.yes if you hit its rear it does great damage. assuming the player is going to be a noob and let you see his back to zooks.


you're doing it wrong...Allied vehicles are for killing infantry(except m10s, m18s, and FF's), while Axis armor(except the p4 and the ist and ost) is generally for killing vehicles.
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Poppi Offline
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2012, 08:19:01 pm »

The sherman tank is definitely fine where it is because it's already extremely useful. The P4 just suffers from not being worth the cost. If I can buy 2 panthers, and still have enough wiggle room with fuel, then why would I invest in a P4. I'm not suggesting a price change on the panther (because it was lowered for a good reason), but a pop, price, or some other type of patch modification for p4s should be tested and considered (which probably has already happened by the devs).


i dont know. i think the sherman is far from fine. i think the p4 and sherman find themselves in the same spot as it can become useless really fast. Ive seen p4s in many games and ive seen them get more inf kills than a 76mm Sherman by alot. Infact i dont see Shermans perform that well. Only in rare cases do they do damage and live to tell the tale. Maybe med armor is something that requires more skills than a LV or a H tank.
 You cant waste it and you just cant send it in. If P4 gets some kind of price reduction i think sherman should too

And about the ATG price increase. It was already much lower before and took a drastic MU and POP increase. As volks mentioned increasing that alone puts a damper on US (especially TRs), since there are no long range FU based AT options for US.
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smurfORnot Offline
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2012, 11:17:33 pm »

you call 1 pop raise drastic?
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HairyPothead Offline
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Posts: 38



« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2012, 11:27:10 pm »

it also dampens usa due to the fact that USA has no lesser options for instance. axis can pack g43-65 munis or Mp40's mp44. usa just gets the bar at 80 munis unless you go infantry doctrine. so axis can have more spread out muni option.
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kwiatekkek Offline
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 02:21:13 am »

allied  tank destroyes (m10/18) are way underpriced imo.
how many m10s   can u   get  max? 8 ?
and on top  of that  ure  still  able  to field  round 5  atgs , and  5 stikie sqds... 
that  is  just  sick  amount  of  at  , that'll   go  throught  any 
heavy/super heavy axis  any  day, witout any  support.

+1 to Hicks ideas.
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CrazyWR Offline
EIR Veteran
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 02:42:24 am »

used to cost 160fuel, now m10 is 200 and m18 is 210, so 7 max
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skaffa Offline
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 05:22:40 am »

This just shows EIR has too much fuel. Why try to preserve units when you can have so many.
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