88 Change

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[panzerman]

they need to make the stuka a more worth while unit...
the thing is so bad...

but i agree on getting rid of arty ability for the 88 it is 2 much.

[3rdCondor]

Well the artillery ability was given to the 88 back when defensive wasn't very popular. OBM was a tier 4, and allied armored players could repair their pershings while moving up to 4 times using field repairs and 2 repair kits. Terror players had rolling thunder, and blitz players had a 25% damage increase for tigers, and the ability to purchase increased penetration capabilities.

The 88 is definitely useful enough now to take away that added bonus, plus giving the 88 artillery makes no sense. The 88 isn't an artillery unit... it's a cannon. Cannons shoot AT things, not onto things. The 88 was never used as a howitzer.. 105 cannons were, but allies were stupid and called them all 88s. Giving the 88 artillery is like turning a KT into a plane.

[Demon767]

lol condor

[tank130]

Why not add a pop or pool increase for the arty option?

[DarkSoldierX]

Why not add a pop or pool increase for the arty option?

I feel its a better option for the 88 just to loose its ability to counter its main counter, rather then just +1 pop.

[tank130]

I feel its a better option for the 88 just to loose its ability to counter its main counter, rather then just +1 pop.

+1 pop would be kinda silly......

I don't remember actually suggesting a number. That would be up to the balance team to determine.

[GORKHALI]

take away the 88 arty and i promise u none will use 88 and u will very rarely see def doctorine in action, axis uses  a lot of 88 coz axis faces a lots of atguns which r cheaper then paks  and even paks get easily destroyed by ally atguns. even though i spameed 88s in the past i was bad at it . even 1 atguns can kill 88 or rangers with smoke barrage it is very easy to eleminate 88 unless it has heavy supports and mine spam.but with ally have so many arty in every doctorine 88 is not a very big problem and stukas r totally fail as they can hardly do any damage .

[jackmccrack]

Now that the accuracy and damage between them has changed, 88s surely do not die to ATGs easily.

[Poppi]

Now that the accuracy and damage between them has changed, 88s surely do not die to ATGs easily.

but seems 88s have any easy time hitting atgs.
i think the problem is the 88 has so many buffs. health, armor, officer (acc/damage), arty. why so much?

[EIRRMod]

I can definitely respect the fact that the BT comes up with stuff that is unexpected, but in the case of the 88 I can't find any discussion previously that leads up to this change. 88 vs at gun change was just out of the blue and didn't have the effect it was supposed to achieve.

In defence of the current BT - it was a change that was passed by the SDT from the last BT, and it should have been caught by us (The Dev team) but we missed it.

It is being rectified now, and you will see some changes for this weekend hopefully.

[GORKHALI]

but seems 88s have any easy time hitting atgs.
i think the problem is the 88 has so many buffs. health, armor, officer (acc/damage), arty. why so much?

why does only ally armor can move repair and fire i also want them removed if 88 get nerfed as 88's shots bonces more often against persing and ff ,and you guys QQ aboout the unit that cannot move and takes shit loads of time to build,..

[Shabtajus]

why does only ally armor can move repair and fire i also want them removed if 88 get nerfed as 88's shots bonces more often against persing and ff ,and you guys QQ aboout the unit that cannot move and takes shit loads of time to build,..

says a guy who cursed me when i was with 88s spam vs his armour coy 

[skaffa]

I havent played with new 88 so cant comment much. But 88 was too good vs ATGs. ATG + Marder or Elephant (?) in front is OP. Unless you make maps bigger. On smaller maps you have 88 covering a huge area (tanteville left field for example). Putting a Ele in front of it is too much to handle. It extends the area you control a lot. You cant use ATGs to get rid of any tanks near a 88. They get sniped by 88. If you want to assault a position of inf+tanks you bring up ATGs behind your own inf to take care of the enemy tanks. But if there is an 88 you cant do this at all! 3 shots and 1 atg down! This is way too good! Tanks and atgs are no option vs a proper build doomfort or even vs 88+inf+tank. That leaves your arty, which is not effective enough vs 88, and your infantry. You cannot attack trenches with MGs in them covered by medbunker just with some infantry. On small maps you have to get rid of the 88 doomfort to be able to get back into the game. You can only succesfully get rid of this by using smoke + mass infantry. Smoke is not something you always have. All in all allies have no counters or reliable ways to deal with a strong defensive position consisting of inf+tanks+88. A position you HAVE to get rid of most of the time, especially on the small maps. This is all because you cant use your ATGs up front to counter any tanks. If you cant do this you are going to get raped by the tanks.

I havent played with new 88. But on paper I find it a good change. 88s dont rape atgs anymore and atgs dont kill 88s anymore, both side lose and win at the same time. If only the 88 or ATG got changed then ok I can understand, but both got changed vs each other, making it equal. So I cant really see what the problem is.

[EIRRMod]

I havent played with new 88. But on paper I find it a good change. 88s dont rape atgs anymore and atgs dont kill 88s anymore, both side lose and win at the same time. If only the 88 or ATG got changed then ok I can understand, but both got changed vs each other, making it equal. So I cant really see what the problem is.

Its mainly the Arty on them.  As a 'free' added ability via the doctrine - its a bit OP for its price/pop vs area control.  It allows the 88 to have the direct counters to its own counter.

[I2ay]

In practice the 88 will still 2 shot AT guns, and hit half the time. In 4 88 shots the ATG is most likely dead. Meanwhile, 8 or more shots from an ATG will barely hurt an 88.

[skaffa]

Right. If thats the case it needs tweaking.

[Shabtajus]

2 shots and 1 atg down!

fixed


plus the problem is that it was change accuracy vs each other? so when u r charging 88 with inf + atg u must be very close to 88 with atg cuz on longer distance atg loses acc + acc modifier vs 88 = missed shots, since 88 has 100 range he aint faces those distance acc problems  and still hits atg. And u better pray 88s is not supervised...

[Smokaz]

Right. If thats the case it needs tweaking.

- 88 remains able to KO at guns in 2-3 shots while atgs themselves deal 25% damage to the 88. One situation I remember particulary well was when I had a 5% bug 17 pounder left vs a 88.  Out of two. Using AP rounds.

I suggest the devs actually try attacking a 88 ingame with some at guns before they continue to perpetuate this myth that the change ended up being equal.

[LeoPhone]

88 needs 3 shots to kill 57mm

but officer buffs fuck it up.

[Hicks58]

Defensive Officer buffs are fucking a lot of things up tbh.