EIR from a fresh perspective

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[Stuart750]

Edit: The purpose of this thread is both to challenge some of your mod's concepts, as well as to make a dumb butt like me a little more informed on what is going on

Hey guise, for those of you who remember me, I've been with EIR from almost the beginning (although I'm not a mapper/coder/admin etc, so I haven't formally contributed anything),and I've spent most of the past few years on OMG (for those of you who know what that is). Since the OMG-EIR:R split, I've noticed some things that have gotten much different than when I left you folks about two years back. I've played a few EIR games, and noticed a few different things that caught my attention.

Gameplay Overview
The mod seems to be very heavy on armour and weapons teams (namely AT guns). Maybe that's because in my last couple games I haven't seen too much heavy infantry, but it seems that infantry don't get to play as important a role as armour (light or otherwise). I love tanks. I think tanks are the sh!t, but I think it undermines the layout of the game if the effectiveness of infantry units are watered down. Considering that this is such an integral part of your mod, this is more of an observation than a concern.

Company Build Restrictions
I understand that, in the past, people have collaborated to make smurfy/greify companies solely for clobbering the enemy, with no regard for self-preservation. As a result, a restrictive company manager (or whatever you'd like to call it) was implemented in order to keep companies well rounded. However, now this means that all players are restricted (with a little wiggle room) in their company setup. I'm not a huge fan of light armour, and I like to build my company with a good infantry + medium armour recipe, but I'm not allowed to do that.  I don't think this layout is a good idea for encouraging creative and individual company builds (which is important for learning how to use different company setups, and improving your general COH capabilities. In the past, we've had problems with a few of our players doing that. As a result, community members chose not to include them in games, and that seemed to solve the problem for us.

Bounced rounds still cause damage to tanks
While I understand that this is a vCOH feature, I noticed that bounced shells are inflicting ~10% damage to various tanks. Using my StuG, I noticed that bounced rounds are inflicting almost as much damage as a round that penetrates. I guess you could argue that it decreases the armour of the tank in question, with sparring or something like that, but considering that the round does not actually penetrate the vehicle, it should do little to no damage at all. I don't understand this.

Medkits
Seem to be very weak. I'm not sure if they just have a half-full bottle of tylenol in them to go around the squad, but they seem to work VERY slowly. With healing units few and far in between, it seems unfitting that Medkits are so impotent.

Repairs
I think the repair system is very very weird, as I'm used to having different units repair vehicles in different ways (over repairs, wear & tear, etc), as well as being able to move around between repair sessions, or being more flexible in when I want to repair my vehicle. I guess it would be more realistic, but considering the fast-paced layout of EIR, it's difficult to argue how it improves

Also, Teamspeak 3 is much better than Ventrilo IMO.

[nikomas]

On the infartry bit, I can agree with that one... In the way I fight grens, tommies and rifles only exist to be food for the grinder. They have little purpose beyond capping and well... "I need 10 pop of something that can engage the 10 pop of enemy inf from running around"

And while I personally love elite infartry like stormtroopers, and they are worth the cost no doubt if used right (had a 27kill stormtrooper Mp44 squad last game, tactical nuke (buldlenade) helped with that) they rarely have the significance just a single P4 or stug can have, or hell, even a T17.

Just a little pet peeve of mine, but any non elite is just food for the grinder thats thrown away in my companies, and I win a lot so I must be doing something right.

[lionel23]

Hmm, let me at least address some of your points in question my friend, at least from MY experience and perspective.  Your mileage will vary depending who answers this thread.

Gameplay Overview
Actually it is quite opposite, the game heavily favors Infantry play, but again that's a preference on players.  Also, your views of 'infantry' focus comes down to those who rely on Elite Infantry (fewer squads but with higher staying power like Rangers and Stormtroopers) to bulk Mainline infantry (Grens/Riflemen/Tommies).  As a US infantry player, I field roughly 10 squads of rangers and I can usually keep them on the field the entire match and very rarely will I come down to end-game with not at least 1-2 rangers on the field.  Tanks SEEM dominant (most companies can only get 5-6 if using basic armor) but that's why there is an emphasis on ATGs as most of the US doctrines lack decent handheld AT (zooks for 2 of them, while one gets RRs) while all Brits have access to Piats.  I think this is more a 'who are you playing with' type of thing than anything else, as all games will always devolve into infantry fighting and the current meta game prevents axis from getting any heavy tanks for awhile (Tigers).

Company Build Restrictions
Companies are built around what is 'efficient' at the moment.  No one says you got to take Light Armor, and in fact I refuse to take LVs in my US companies due to how terrible I find they are compared to their British counterparts.  You have a 'reserve' pool which lets you dip further into any of your supply pools.  For my Infantry company thats another 30 points of infantry, but I could also just as viably use the extra 30 points to get some more tanks or support weapons.  You have to make your company within a reasonable limit (of what you're trying to do) and of course there are pro's and con's to what you do.  Some companies can field 8-11 Stugs if you wanted to, but taking that much in armor is going to seriously gimp your amount of infantry you can field.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Bounced Rounds
I've never seen 'bouncing' rounds do as much damage as a penetrating hit, you'll need to provide a replay of that, but I have no issue with bounced rounds as-is.

Medkits
You're not using them right.  They are very powerful for Anti-Infantry equipped grens (due to higher health and better armor) than Volks.  You should NOT be using these on volks.  KCH and Grens benefit strongest from these, as well as 88 crews (a MUST for that unit).  Medkits are also multi use and one of the few 'use anywhere' healing options in the game, while other healing options require you to be near a triage or medic bunker.

Repairs
What's wrong with the repair system?  All units repair the same unless you have doctrine buffs (like moving and repair or shooting and repair).  Get your tanks out of there and pull them to the rear and repair them.  Or don't get repairs on them and use them to inflict as much damage as possible before they go down.  I mainly choose that option for super slow units like Churchills who tend to get in really nasty situations but can cause a breakthrough, while really 'survivable' tanks like Tigers and Jumbos and Panthers I would get a repair kit to increase their longevity on the field.  Lighter units like Halftracks and Tank Destroyers can live without them due to how fast they die and it is generally a waste of munitions unless you're very acutely aware of them being attacked and can react fast enough to save them.

[lionel23]

On the infartry bit, I can agree with that one... In the way I fight grens, tommies and rifles only exist to be food for the grinder. They have little purpose beyond capping and well... "I need 10 pop of something that can engage the 10 pop of enemy inf from running around"

And while I personally love elite infartry like stormtroopers, and they are worth the cost no doubt if used right (had a 27kill stormtrooper Mp44 squad last game, tactical nuke (buldlenade) helped with that) they rarely have the significance just a single P4 or stug can have, or hell, even a T17.

Just a little pet peeve of mine, but any non elite is just food for the grinder thats thrown away in my companies, and I win a lot so I must be doing something right.

I totally agree with you there Niko.  That's why I abhor riflemen.  They're just food for 'real' infantry like Grens and Rangers I use as the defacto main infantry for allies.  Add in that T4 to gren armor for Blitz and you're talking about the best all round infantry in all of EIRR.

[TheVolskinator]

Though I really like my new infantry build. Enough pineapples to blot out the sun. WE SHALL FIGHT IN THE SHADE! You can't beat having 20-some odd riflemen with pineapples and a mix of BARs and stickies. They can soft counter everything, but they're just really squishy at it. Rangers don't tickle me because you can't just get 2-4 and leave it at that. The Thompsons that make them so scary are also a huge muni sink, and in the tank-and-sniper heavy meta (especially because *everyone* except tank is running panthers) means that they don't have much to fight. If you can play conservatively with your riflemen and not just use them as meat, you can outlast other players by the sheer mass of reserve bodies you can field if the shit really hits the fan.

[nikomas]

Volski, why are you calling my pumas and p4's panthers for? 

[Demon767]

You're not new, you cant have a fresh perspective.

and i personally disagree with everything you have said Stuart, i think you're just blowing it out your ass.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

You're not new, you cant have a fresh perspective.

and i personally disagree with everything you have said Stuart, i think you're just blowing it out your ass.

How nice, here he is looking to question other players on aspects he found odd in the game and you come up with this. Way to contribute.

I have to say, Stuart, I think Medkits, as they are, add to the EiRR gameplay. They don't act as a barrier against damage while in combat like so many people use them as in vCoH, they instead allow you to carefully preserve  your men over the course of the battle. As a former frequent Terror player who used quite a few Knight's Cross Holders, I can safely say that I never had an issue with the way medkits worked.

[Demon767]

Here we go again, Vermillion is on the scene, Mr misinterpreter

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Here we go again, Vermillion is on the scene, Mr misinterpreter

Unless the initial post was your idea of a humorous statement, I fail to see what I misinterpreted.

[Demon767]

Please continue Mr misinterpreter

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Please continue Mr misinterpreter

You are neither amusing nor of any discernable value to this thread. It is finished.

[Demon767]

Thanks, Byebye Mis interpreter!

[Stuart750]

I'm going to be playing as much EIR as I can in the coming days, and try to wrap my head around how you guys do it. I might have some more ideas that I might post in here or another thread. I understand that with so many doctrine abilities & units going on, it can be hard to balance things.

Demon, like I said, at the beginning of the thread, right at the top "The purpose of this thread is both to challenge some of your mod's concepts, as well as to make a dumb butt like me a little more informed on what is going on"

It's nice to see that we still have a few select members of the community who are not only able to be asshats when it comes to forum use, but are also unable to contribute anything of value to the topic at hand.

I have a fresh perspective, because I haven't been here since September 2008. Since then you've had a number of new implications, and a gradual shift in game play and design. Do you remember when we had to buy our units on the website, from a text-based webpage, without pictures? In the time that I have been away from EIR, major things have happened to change the mod. OMG is much more like the old EIR, in terms of just about everything except the name. You don't think almost 4 years absence gives me a little frame of reference?

My concern with the repairs (something I don't need to test in more games) is as such;
I use a lot of medium tanks. I like Meduim tanks. I always buy repairs for them so I can use them as long as possible. I do not suicide or aggressively rush my tanks, and so the repairs will more that double the lifespan of the unit. My problem lies with the fact that while repairing, my tank is a vulnerable target that is unable to move, defend itself, or otherwise respond to enemy activity. Another problem is the fact that I am unable to prematurely stop or cancel my repairs in order to withdraw/engage, etc in times of need. If my engine is damaged while my tank still has a lot of health, if I need to respond to an attack, or if I want to give the unit commands, I can't. I think it would be much better to have sappers/pios/engies/pgrens/TB kittens/ etc be able to repair, even nominally, so to offer some decent battlefield flexibility.

[Hicks58]

Gameplay Overview
EiRR is an environment where people will go for the most cost efficient investments. Support weapons and armour provide the most rewards for their costs - Therefore they see more use. Basic infantry tend to perform a "Filler" role for recrewing, back-capping or fighting off other back-cappers.

Company Build Restrictions
There have been some seriously silly company builds in the past that end up as just too much for people to just look past. One example was when you could make a company comprised of 18 M8 Greyhounds. Combined with Armour doctrine's ability to cap they wreaked total havoc.

Bounced rounds still cause damage to tanks
For the most part, bounce damage is set at 5% of the total damage. The primary exceptions to this are ATG's of any description, which do 50% damage on a bounce. This is so that heavy armour can't just hap hazardly sit in front of a couple of ATG's bouncing most rounds and taking next to no damage. This is a function that works both ways for both sides.

Medkits
If medkits healed any faster they would be an effective combat buff and cause WM infantry to perform a lot better than they already do. They serve their purpose of keeping squads in the fight and don't take all that long to get a squad back together so long as you avoid combat.

Repairs
The repair system is quite different, I agree, but promotes good gameplay. You have to make an active choice on when, where and at what point in your health bar is it appropriate to start making repairs. Do you do it near the front lines for response time once it's finished, or do you send it back to your spawn point so you can retreat it should they send something after it? You do get used to it after a while and it becomes second nature how much the kits give back, and when/where you should be using them.

Off the topics you brought up, it's worth noting a few statistics have changed in EiRR from vCoH. Not too many from the base units, but there are important ones. A good example is that PzGrens for PE no longer have Soldier armour, but have Infantry armour and 80 health like WM Grenadiers. They also get a single G43 by default to aid their DPS.

[Demon767]

Tankedit: Personal insults removed

[Smokaz]

Bounce damage was changed the last 4 years across the board? Point of reference, indeed. You might wanna organize your thoughts beyond nice paragraphs and some formatting.

As for repair, the normal repair having a downside and vehicle-oriented doctrines buffing this is a conscious design choice..

[RoyalHants]

Company Build Restrictions
 One example was when you could make a company comprised of 18 M8 Greyhounds. Combined with Armour doctrine's ability to cap they wreaked total havoc.

Man I loved those greyhounds...