Upgrade pool values are in place

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[aeroblade56]

AB are meant for RRS?. Umm most elite infantry can do dual roles and well.

Storms bundle nades elite armor. 2 schreks cloak.

Fallschimjaeger's 2 schreks with sprint, and a HT for extra life. provides GOOD AI fg42

Rangers Thompsons fireup. 2 zooks in mass with TR provides a viable option.

Commandos, Egh great AI with officer smoke great grenade, piats survivable platform.

KCH GREAT Ai can put up a moderate defence in massed faust other then that its the only one i can think of.

AB RRS glorified at rifles great at. 1 LMG not so good by itself since negates its own armor great in mass when 2x lmgs.

[AmPM]

Wait, did you just claim that Stormies with schreks and grenades are good AI??

Elite armor is a doctrine ability, same with you getting Garands on your AB which ups their DPS about 15%.

AB have a get out of jail card, it's called Fire Up.

There is NO reason that your LMGs shouldn't cost as much as every other Elite Infantry AI weapon upgrade.

[lionel23]

There is one, you're spending an unlock for an AI weapon on a squad when there are other AI options specifically added to airborne to address that.

Airborne riflemen was added as a strictly AI component to airborne.  With a T4 these are now riflemen with airborne armor.  They get BARs as a default choice.

the LMG option is a T2 unlock that you have to pay for (to unlock) and put on your squads.  I would say the 'pay' option should definitely make the pool value jump up but not as much as the riflemen squad, who get the armor for free.

Example of what would be ballpark right.

Airborne (4pool), +LMG = 6 Pool
Airborne Riflemen (4pool), +2 Bars = 7 Pool

Then with that T4 it would make the Riflemen a really good but more expensive buy, while going for the doctrine unlock is a slightly cheaper incentive if one didn't want to go to that T4.

Now that's what I'm saying anyway, it should of course cost something but should not be equal pool cost when they already have a like-minded option available.

[aeroblade56]

Wait, did you just claim that Stormies with schreks and grenades are good AI??

Elite armor is a doctrine ability, same with you getting Garands on your AB which ups their DPS about 15%.

AB have a get out of jail card, it's called Fire Up.

There is NO reason that your LMGs shouldn't cost as much as every other Elite Infantry AI weapon upgrade.

I said Storms with a bundle nade dont suffer pool for a great grenade and that T4 u get a extra bundle nade aswell. Schreks dont make good ai dont insult me.


Also the garand thats not worth a T4 and you know it since every other unit on allies mainline and or elite get garands as a standard. Airborne dont have it they have a shitty worthless carbine.

[TheVolskinator]

I said Storms with a bundle nade dont suffer pool for a great grenade and that T4 u get a extra bundle nade aswell. Schreks dont make good ai dont insult me.


Also the garand thats not worth a T4 and you know it since every other unit on allies mainline and or elite get garands as a standard. Airborne dont have it they have a shitty worthless carbine.

NO.

It's good for giving the enemy XP.

[Nug]

We only aimed at putting a pool on elite infantry and engineer upgrades in the first implementation of this system. It's very likely that over time more upgrades will be given pool costs. (Panzerfausts, assault grenades, all kinds of mines/demos and the like, etc) Though we do believe less is more, so it's definitely not going to turn into WC 2.0.

nonononono leave the current system, it is perfect. Limiting normal upgrades will be another retarded  WC 2.0 as you said.

[Ahnungsloser]

I've tested the AI peformance from the Airborne squads against some Infantry types in vCoH and the Airbornes only have a good change when you use them
at midrange.

At shortrange the higher accuracy of the Kar98 (0.85 vs 0.75) the lower reload (1.5-2 vs. 2-3.5) and the lower cooldown (0.75 vs    2—1.75)
and the double damage (15 Damage vs. 7 Damage) neglects every other advantage of the M1 Carbine. (Advantages would be 0.8 Moving Accuracy vs. 0.5 Moving Accuracy and double reload frequency)


At longrange the higher accuracy of the Kar98 dominates and you should just avoid this kind of battles against any other infantry.
And if you carry two RR's you lose AI because you change two M1 Carbines with RR's (obviously)

The Sturmtruppen/Panzergrenadiere carry the same "Elite kar98" with 15 Damage and the Volksgrenadiere carry the "Basic kar98" with 10 Damage, the rest
seem to be equal, additionally the "Basic kar98" has -10% accuracy against soldier armour compared to the "Elite kar98".

I'm not at home and looked at coh stats - I'm not sure if these values have been changed in EIR.
When I'm back at home I will check this stuff in EIR.

[Nug]

AB got normal rifles like riflemen.


AB riflemen got garands tho, but it's not a big different because on L and M the damage increase is so small it's not even 10% and close range it's only 1 dps.

[Hicks58]

AB use the M1 Carbine.

Riflemen and AB Riflemen use the M1 Garand, with the exception of the squad leader who has a Carbine.

The difference between their damages is 7 for the Carbine and 10 for the Garand.

That's 6 rounds to drop a Volk with the Garand and 9 rounds with a Carbine.

For a Grenadier, that's 8 rounds with the Garand and 12 rounds with a Carbine.

Even though the accuracy (0.35 long for Garand, 0.25 long for Carbine) and cooldown (Carbine has faster cooldown at medium and long range, but short range cooldown is equal for both weapons) aren't too much different, in infantry terms, the damage difference is huge. In armoured terms it's like jumping up from Sherman damage to Pershing damage.

[Nug]

aren't too much different, in infantry terms, the damage difference is huge. In armoured terms it's like jumping up from Sherman damage to Pershing damage.

lol what is this i don't even

http://dow2.info/coh/Zaxis/rifles/


the difference is pretty much nothing between the two.

[Hicks58]

At what point did I say Carbines are better than Garands? Oh wait, I didn't. There is no "AB Garand" in use by any infantry in EiRR. NONE.

Squad weapon setup:

Standard Riflemen: 5x Garand 1x Carbine

Standard Airborne Rifleman: 5x Garand 1x Carbine

Standard Airborne: 6x Carbine

Any Garand in use is the m1_garand_rifle.rgd entry ONLY. Above information is fresh off the RGD's. I suggest you check it.

DPS applys for extended firefights only, the initial alpha strike is completely unaccounted for. For the first 8 rounds the Garand is pouring out a shit ton more damage than the Carbine. 80 damage from the Garand and 56 damage from the Carbine. Tell me, where is that pointed out on your third party chart you've just pulled out of your ass?

[Nug]

DPS applys for extended firefights only, the initial alpha strike is completely unaccounted for. For the first 8 rounds the Garand is pouring out a shit ton more damage than the Carbine. 80 damage from the Garand and 56 damage from the Carbine. Tell me, where is that pointed out on your third party chart you've just pulled out of your ass?

Alpha strike does not apply,  DPS is the correct value because an inf squad cannot alpha strike simply because all first shots will never hit the target to alpha strike other inf squad.

If you want to measure inf attack power DPS is the only way, hence garand and carbine are nearly the same.

[DarkSoldierX]

the difference is pretty much nothing between the two.

31% difference at close range actually, which is the most important DPS, especially for american squads. Everyone knows you can't sit at long and medium with american unupgraded inf squads. Unless you have marines of course.

[Nug]

31% difference at close range actually, which is the most important DPS, especially for american squads. Everyone knows you can't sit at long and medium with american unupgraded inf squads. Unless you have marines of course.

i meant that 4 dps vs 3 dps is not much when you compare it to g43 that has 8 dps close range and not mentioning smgs  like thompsons or mp44 which has 18 dps.

[Hicks58]

Alpha strike does not apply,  DPS is the correct value because an inf squad cannot alpha strike simply because all first shots will never hit the target to alpha strike other inf squad.

If you want to measure inf attack power DPS is the only way, hence garand and carbine are nearly the same.

Except most infantry engagements at close range are over before the first mag is empty from the squad members. How exactly does DPS apply when one of the parties are dead? That's right. It doesn't.

Garands and Carbines are not nearly the same. As pointed out by DarkSoldier, based purely on your DPS scale there's a 31% difference. Compared to other common rifles like the Volks Rifle and the Grenadier Rifle, the Garand is in a MUCH better position than the Carbine. A position which would let a squad of Rifles win out over a Grenadier squad at close range, where if they were equipped with Carbines, they wouldn't. Comparing the Garand to G43's and SMG's is pointless. Those are weapons packages which come exclusive with munitions investments - BAR's should be compared to them.

The only time a G43 is seen out of a munitions package is the single G43 that comes default with EiRR PzGrens, but that's offset by the shit two PzGren rifles in the squad.

[Nug]

A position which would let a squad of Rifles win out over a Grenadier squad at close range, where if they were equipped with Carbines, they wouldn't.

Gren dps close range 6

garand 4

no

[TheWindCriesMary]

He probably meant volksgrens instead of Grens

[Nug]

In earlier sentence he said volksgrens soooooooo

[TheWindCriesMary]

Good point. He's just crazy then

[Ahnungsloser]

It's not so easy to estimate how the different damage output of several wapeons affect a infantry engagement.


The first thing that you need to consider the start conditions at the beginning at the engagement:
 - Is the squad on full health or not? (situation of the squad itself)
 - How is the cover situation: Does one of the infantry squads charge over red cover towards you, or staying both of the
squads already in cover? (pre-engagement advantage)
 - Armour types of the squads (target table modifiers)

The main battle begins:
 - Range situation (accuracy modifiers)
 - Is one squad sitting at green cover but you have clear shot range to the target so that it's not considered? (cover statistics)
 - Are there are shotblocker between the two squads? (properities of the enviroment)
 - Squad formation: Are the member of the squad spread out or clumbed together - Is it possible that
missroles can injure another soldiers of a squad? (scatter values)
 - The statistics value are only right if you look at a neverending battle, the average values will converge to
the given RGD's value, smaller time windows can result in a total different average value. (probability function, probability density)
 - The wapeons can roll a criticals (probability for a crit)
 
Other factors:
 - Are there are special buffs applied to the squad? (doctrines, temporal abilities, etc.)
 - How much damage can one soldier take until he is dead and the squad lose a corresponding damage output. After one
member is fallen the others take now more damage and the time decreases until the next member dies. (health per soldier, squad size)



The problem is that damage output is a function of (Damage, Range, Accuracy, Reload, Cooldown, Cooldown Multiplier, Rate of Fire, Reload Frequency, Moving Accuracy, Moving Burst, Acc. Incremental, Fire Aim Time, Aim Multiplier, Ready Aim Time, Post Firing Aim Time, Post Firing Cooldown, Cover Table, Target Table). But (Accuracy, Reload Multiplier, Cooldown Multiplier, Aim Multiplier) are a function of the range.

I'm pretty sure that I forgot some stuff, but I want to show that this is a complex system with a shitload of external disturbance values.
Experimental engangements are the best way to get a feeling how these factors are working together and shift the end result of a
engagement.