Proposed stormtrooper change

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[Vermillion_Hawk]

The only issue with Stormies is the dual schreks.

The cloak isn't a big deal other than that. Buy some jeeps if you are armor heavy. No different than buying a bunch if you know the opponent likes snipers.

I would agree with even that, but elite armor is also the issue.

[AmPM]

Not really, Elite Armor is not that big an issue, it doesn't save them vs tanks, and makes them usable as assault troops, like Rangers with more individual HP and 2 less guys.

[terrapinsrock]

I have to agree with Wind.

Stormies, as much as the double shreck needs muni price increase (costs less than a Double shreck on a TB squad  ).

I would agree with even that, but elite armor is also the issue.

 If we removed double shrecks from Battle hardened while keeping it for MP44 storms, I think it could solve it with the muni price increase.

But taking out double shrecks would either 1) remove the incentive to use storms and chop off a arm of Blitz

or

 2) encourage single shreck blobs that can cloak.

[AmPM]

Single Schrek blobs shouldn't be an issue, you are basically doubling the required population for the same amount of AT.

And yea, Elite armor really isn't an issue...more of a problem with grens.

[Mysthalin]

If we removed double shrecks from Battle hardened while keeping it for MP44 storms, I think it could solve it with the muni price increase.

Not the issue. The issue here is the fact stormtroopers with double shreks have existed in EiR, completely unchanged, since way back in the day when you could get things like 70% more damage health and penetration on ATGs - and even then they were one of the most efficient units you could possibly use. And although things like Tank Reapers, Raid Assault, Improved Barrels, Subversion and all these other things have been changed to not be bat-shit insane - the Great Axis Luddite movement has done a tremendously good job of keeping the most overpowered thing in existence not only unchanged - but even receiving the ability to become completely immune to small arms (as opposed to nearly completely from before) with the use of a T4.

A unit that forces your enemy to have to fight on your terms, not his, is the definition of good strategy. Shitty gameplay is when you get to play your safe, comfortable, mindless style of gameplay regardless of who or what you are facing.

No, that's the definition of a unit that allows you to play your safe, comfortable mindless style of gameplay regardless of who or what you are facing. You are a moron.

English, and argumentative fail at its best.

Sorry that I don't speak Canadian conspiracy theory, but my English is quite fine thanks.

No, it suggests looking for the simplest explanation for the complaints with Stormtroopers. Is it because they are overpowered, or is it because people don't like playing against things that require thinking, intelligence and being patient to counter?

So a sweeping generalisation of the entire human element in a game based on statistics and mathematics is.. a simpler explanation than the simple mathematical truth of "nothing else can even come close to this kind of firepower at 10 popcap"? Let me repeat this - you are a pompous moron.

Dnicee is right, the metagame has changed to the new TD's and in response, Storms are being used.

That would be fine and all, Demon.. Except storms were being used before hellcats came into the fray. As in, they were being used all the time. As in - they weren't a response to meta-game unit. They did become more numerous after the StuH buff, but it was hardly a massive change in number of storms used.

[terrapinsrock]

Not the issue. The issue here is the fact stormtroopers with double shreks have existed in EiR, completely unchanged,

What I am saying is that the Double shreck still has a place in EIR unchanged. Though they are way underpriced for what they do which as I mentioned can be easily solved and Battle hardened should be removed for them.They still have a role on the field of properly supporting advancing armor and ambushing unsupported tanks.

The problem is that many Allies leave tanks/arty unsupported or lolcharge them  in without giving a shit, which incentives double shrecks which then leads to Allied tears.

[NightRain]

The reason why they are a problem was already discussed. The issue is not a T4 they get, the issue is the upgrade they get which packs a lot of power. The simpliest of all reasons would be to remove it. Then there are several complicated ways you would look at it. Increase its price? Would it still solve the ability to destroy a medium tank with a single volley with just 10 pop?

[terrapinsrock]

The simpliest of all reasons would be to remove it.

Simplest but could have unintended consequences, while a price increase would make it a all eggs in one basket unit that they should be. 

[hans]

at a certain rate price increase makes their costeffectiveness ratio very bad and u would see alot less double shreked stormtroopers.
#
personally the current price for them is already very high.

[Mysthalin]

Simplest but could have unintended consequences, while a price increase would make it a all eggs in one basket unit that they should be. 

Unintended consequences such as bloody what? Allied tanks builds not becoming unusable due to the enemy fielding 10 popcap worth of units in one specific doctrine?

Unless you're looking at something like 500-600 munitions per double shrek stormtrooper, you're not even coming close to solving the issue. For what they do, 305 munitions (w/ Medikit) is ridiculously, cheaper than chips cheap. Remember that in terms of relative cost to total resource pool available - stormtrooper double shreks are cheaper than M10s.

The problem is that many Allies leave tanks/arty unsupported or lolcharge them  in without giving a shit, which incentives double shrecks which then leads to Allied tears.

There's a difference between "lolcharge a tank in and lose" and "I have to perpetually keep 20 popcap of infantry and scouting units in a perfect 10 metre circle around each and every single one of my 12 popcap tanks if I just want to be able to defend the tank from sudden inexplicable death - forget silly ideas such as attacking with the tank ever".

Losing a tank in a stupid lolcharge is fine. Heck, try lolcharging 2 spread out marders with a pershing witout even pretending to micro - and you'll die - possibly without ever getting a shot off. And that is fine. Try lolcharging a Tiger into 2 AP rounds ATGs. You will die, and that will be fine. But being unable to do ANYTHING - even trying to be smart dancing around buildings, taking potshots and the like due to the constant need for absolutely perfect infantry support (as the infantry is being whittled down heavily in the attrition war, something blitzkrieg can do very well with things like lightning war and, I dunno - the best MG and manpack mortar in the game available to them), or doing a well-executed flank - that is not fucking fine.

[terrapinsrock]

Unintended consequences such as bloody what? Allied tanks builds not becoming unusable due to the enemy fielding 10 popcap worth of units in one specific doctrine?

Well, lets see, is it the potential of making one of the building blocks of Blitz into a utterly useless unit?

Though, you are right, Double shrecks would need at least 200 muni increase in order to adjust for their effectiveness.

"I have to perpetually keep 20 popcap of infantry and scouting units in a perfect 10 metre circle around each and every single one of my 12 popcap tanks if I just want to be able to defend the tank from sudden inexplicable death

If you need 20 pop of infantry to counter a single dual shreck storms, you are doing something wrong.

[nikomas]

I'd rather take grenadiers with 4 single shrecks than 2 shrecks on stoms, lol, what is this fuckery? Anyone who paid more than 400+ for them would be a complete idiot, or expect to play against only complete idiots. Thier problem is not the cost.

[nikomas]

If you need 20 pop of infantry to counter a single dual shreck storms, you are doing something wrong.

You're saying you always know where enemy storms are at all times then? Storms will spot infartry before they can spot the storms, storms will even spot jeeps before they can spot the storms.

If you are stupid enough to do an unsupported ambush in the vicinity of either, you deserve to lose the storms, but some people are smarter than that.

[AmPM]

Well, another option would be to give Jeeps/Bikes/etc Infantry Awareness out to their sight range....

[Dnicee]

and the best thing would be to leave the stormies alone and stop bitching about them.

[terrapinsrock]

and the best thing would be to leave the stormies alone and stop bitching about them.

+1

[Vermillion_Hawk]

That evidently wouldn't solve the problem, "helper", considering this is a fairly divisive issue among the community.

[Mysthalin]

Well, another option would be to give Jeeps/Bikes/etc Infantry Awareness out to their sight range....

Although a plausible patch against double shreks - this also has an unintended consequence of invalidating the axis sniper and the stromtrooper with StG44s (who, if anything, need and should immediately receive love if the double-shreks are finally shafted).

If you need 20 pop of infantry to counter a single dual shreck storms, you are doing something wrong.

That is what people seem to be suggesting anytime doubleshreks are mentioned though. "Oh, why are your tanks unsupported? Derpa derpa derpa". You can support your tanks - you can kill the storms. They're not uncounterable beasts - even the flakpanzer 43 was "counterable" when it first came out. But in order to do what most people seem to suggest not just possible, but plausible and the height of all smartness is to set up your infantry and scouting units in a circle around the tank so that nothing can ever get through to alpha-shreking range. And for that you WILL need tonnes and tonnes of units, as alpha-strike range is, really, not at all the point-blank-there-are-tank-threads-in-my-face these same people seem to imagine.

and the best thing would be to leave the stormies alone and stop bitching about them.

Maybe in a perfect world where everyone is Dnicee that would be true. Fortunately, we do not live in such a world.

[Tymathee]

Normal storms aren't issues but elite armor storms can have issues.

[8thRifleRegiment]

awww yea, another retard balance thread.