Presidential Debate - USA

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[Sachaztan]

Mitt Romney is not the best and I disagree with him on many subjects but you'll have to admit that he's more qualified and better able to run this country then Mr. Obama could ever hope to be.[/size]

No, a chimpanzee would be a better candidate than him.

No matter if you think Obama is trash or gold, Mitt Romney is still something that should be kept out of the whitehouse.

[Sachaztan]

Care to explain why?

Well there's the flat tax he want, which is basically Voodoo economics.

[Sachaztan]

The only area in the ME that's possibly threatening is the Israel-Iran thing. But both players are rational actors and are quite unlikely to willfully initiate thermonuclear annihilation; economic intervention is more likely to engineer a solution than, say, bombing the crap out of them.

Jodomar: O.o

If you think Israel is going to let Iran have nukes you are misstaken. The Israeli people and government are quite prepared to do anything to protect themselves, something they have proven time and time again.

[PonySlaystation]

Well there's the flat tax he want, which is basically Voodoo economics.

He wants to abolish income tax, that's not the same as flat tax.

[brn4meplz]

I can't stand to hear anything about the USA's presidential elections lately.


The players are all weird. I actually have respect for Obama, He may not be the best choice from the entire population but in today's media minefield you can't J-Walk and hope to gain public office.

Romney's stance on some issues is just mind boggling. I'm not sure even he knows exactly where he is politically.

From an international perspective. The USA needs Obama to win.

Economic issues are not fermented overnight, none of whats currently happening in the USA is directly Obama's fault. It's like inheriting debts. Not your fault, but certainly your problem.

Fundamentally the voters only have 3 choices, Republican nominee, Democratic Nominee, or Abstain(legally abstain)



I think the MOST frightening thing is the complete lack of progress in the USA right now. From an outside perspective the Republican party is trying to start another US civil war. They've stated they don;t want anything to get done, they strong arm bills and other things. Even when the democratic party tries to compromise they try to reap the lions share of bad choices and Doomed-to-fail concepts.

I don't know if they know this but the Nazi party did the same thing in the 30's. The whole reason Hither became Chancellor of germany and was able to assume dictatorial powers is because his political party completely refused to do anything. The governemtn came to a standstill and everyone knows the rest.

I'm not saying thats even likely to happen in the USA. but the fact that some people in public office think that it's appropriate and the right course of action to completely lock the system is ridiculous in the extreme.

[Mysthalin]

As an economist I agree with Acker. Ron Paul's fiscal and monetary policies - although not necessarily absolutely disastrous on their own accord (even if not optimal) WOULD pretty much mean a Great Depression level economic setback if implemented in the way and time-frame Ron Paul suggests. You can do pretty much anything you want to the economy without causing collapse - as long as you do it slowly and reasonably. Similar to coming out from deep-sea diving. Surface slowly and cautiously - you'll be fine. Go from a mile underwater to breathing air and the bends will kill you. Same here - ridiculously massive changes lead to ridiculously high economic stress, however.

Jodomar - OK, 20% tax cut. Considering the US is already looking at a $1 trillion budget deficit (not debt, deficit) - how are you going to cover this extra shortfall in tax revenue? Sure, some of that 20% tax revenue loss will be re-gained via increased private spending, but hardly all of it. The budget deficit WILL rise with the tax cut, and the US does sort of need to sort out their budget deficit.

The domestic Oil bit - yeah, I agree with it. If there's companies willing to invest in trying to get that oil out of the ground with measures in place to minimise damage to the environment - then sure. Go for it. No argument there.

Mortgage tax. This one's simple. The reason this financial crisis - also known as the subprime mortgage crisis happened in the first place was because people took out mortgages they could never really hope to repay. People bought houses on loan hoping entirely to just hold the house till it grew in value more than their mortgage+interest, then to sell at a profit. Once the housing bubble burst - people just flat out dropped their mortgages, and the banks were left to clean up the mess.

Who's to blame? The people for being greedy irrational cunts, or the banks for allowing mortgages that weren't likely to be repaid? The answer to that is both. Implementing more rules and regulations to stop banks from giving out sub-prime mortgages costs time, money and at the end of the day is not really very efficient. A self-enforcing measure such as simply taxing each mortgage, and disallowing the people from taking out mortgages they can't afford via requiring a minimum first installment? Effective, requires very little watch-dog style intervention and fills the coffers at the same time.

Sure, a very small part of the middle class who wanted to keep playing the markets might whine about it. An even smaller minority of the middle class who just want a home of their own might be delayed by 3-5 years before being able to start their mortgage. But neither type of those adversly affected are numerous enough, nor are their woes important enough for it to.. well, matter. And a solution to the housing bubble problem needs to be had. My solution to the housing bubble would have been to tax 100% of profits gained via non-new property sales if the re-sale happens within 12 years of the original purchase. You think that would have been better?

Finally, if you think getting rid of all taxes and embracing a guy who essentially believes in fairies as your supreme ruler is the only way to ensure the world's biggest economic power continues to EXIST 20 years I have very little left to say to you. Other than maybe look at Britain. And Sweden. And Norway. You know, countries that all have much lower crime-rates, unemployment rates and social inequality - while maintaining tax rates far higher than the US, and social security schemes that. You know. Exist.

[acker]

If you think Israel is going to let Iran have nukes you are misstaken. The Israeli people and government are quite prepared to do anything to protect themselves, something they have proven time and time again.

Let me put it this way: short of launching their entire nuclear supply at Iran, there is no way in hell Israel can singlehandedly prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons if Iran really, really wanted them. And the only thing Israel dislikes more than a nuclear Iran is an angry nuclear Iran.

Israel needs international assistance, and Israel knows it.

Care to explain why?

I had a six paragraph essay typed up on Mundell's Impossible Trinity before I realized that I'd probably be wasting my time, if the other Paulites I've met are remotely indicative. And I really suck at explaining things.

But I'd suggest talking to your local economics department if you're still at a university, or talking to your economics department if you're working at a decent-sized company.

[Unkn0wn]

People are debating Romney's imaginary economic plan? Let's face it, nothing he says makes any sense, certainly not in regards to how he promises to lower taxes, increase military spending, make no big cuts (PBS is not a big cut) but still bring down the deficit. He's either lying about at least half of what he says on the national stage or his economic team is run by complete idiots. (Which isn't unlikely, it's after all the GOP/Teaparty we are talking about, you know those same people who don't believe in climate change and human evolution)

Also, people who honestly think Ronald Reagan was a good president need to get their facts straight. If there is one thing the Reagan/Thatcher years should have taught the world, it is that Neoliberalism doesn't work. The economic crisis Reagan faced when he was in office was NOTHING like the one Obama faces today, which was a systemic crisis more than anything else. You'll always have your booms and busts, but not all booms and busts are equal, far from it. In a sense, what happened in 2007 was the perfect storm, and you can't AND get out of a crisis AND dramatically lower government debt all in one passing, something even some politicians in Europe foolishly believe.

[acker]

He's either lying about at least half of what he says on the national stage or his economic team is run by complete idiots.

His econ team is run by Gregory Mankiw and Glenn Hubbard, IIRC. Mankiw was on Dubya's Council of Economic Advisors. Don't know about Hubbard.

That said, I used to read Mankiw's blog. Seemed sensible enough, proposed solutions to the recession that were basically worked like QE or NGDP targeting, in line with pretty much every economist running a blog.

Then he went real quiet when he was recruited to Romney's econ team.

I get the feeling Romney's actively ignoring his econ team. Or that he's saying stuff and asking his econ team to somehow make it work.

[Unkn0wn]

To be honest, the Romney presidency is a very scary thought. It's essentially an empty box as there is absolutely no way to know for sure what you will be getting. Romney has gone from running on his record as a Massachusetts moderate (You know, that model for Obamacare?) in the early stages of the primaries to pleasing the tea-party radicals and advocating outright infuriating policies (on immigration, climate change, education, women's issues, social welfare) as the race tightened. Then when he was nominated candidate for the GOP, he once again turned more moderate, that is with the awkwardly radical Paul Ryan as his running mate. So now there's really no way of telling what his true beliefs are, seeing as how his responses and policies are either largely audience-based or extremely vague.

[Mysthalin]

To be fair, asking an economist for one thing, and one thing only - for him to then tell you what exactly you can expect as a consequence is probably the soundest way of going about economics... The more things you change, the more uncertain the effects will be.

[Jodomar]

The thing is I don't want America to be like Britain, Sweden, and Norway. There's a reason why people left those countries to come here in the first place. Second the mortgage tax has nothing to do with bad regulations and everything to do with funding Obama care and the fact that he lies about not taxing the middle class because he is. I'd rather have a successful business person give it a go then a fail president for a second term full of even more fail. The recession back in the 80's was almost just as bad as the one facing us today and let's not forget that government involvement also had a huge part in why this happened in the first place which Mr. Frank had a huge part in. I want to see Romney win as entitlements, larger government, and outrageous spending is just not going to get us there. Mr Obama is a proven liar and hasn't brought the change he promised. He has brought 5 dollar gas prices, added to an already ludicrous debt, made health care cost more and extremely confusing, can't get his facts straight about libya, passes phantom tax on the middle class, tried to sneak through a trade agreement banning all firearms, invest in shady businesses who contribute to his campaign and the list go on.  I'll also restate what I've said before and that's his first two years was DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED, he could have passed shit on a piece of paper as a new law and it would have gone through. I'm sorry if you're all socialist here but I'm not and nor do I ever want to be apart of a country that supports it. That's why I live in America stop trying to make us like Europe you see how that's working out for them.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

People who praise Reagan forget that his policies of deregulation were one of the background causes of the recent economic recession, Bush didn't do all the work himself.

American politics is, at its basic form, like an episode of the Three Stooges - there's plenty of gibberish, and you can bet your ass that at one point they'll all be slapping each other in the face.

If Americans want to get their political system out of the hellish gutter it is in currently, the best way to go would be to overturn the Citizens United case, therefore reducing the impact of private donations on campaigns. I was pretty diappointed to hear Obama got his own SuperPAC but I suppose he needs it just to be competitive in the current political environment.

Another way to go is for Americans to shake the notion that "no government action is good action" - Madison wrote for a late 18th-century political environment, yet people today still cling to his words with a near-religious fervor. Despite proof to the contrary being thrown in the face of the government and the American people regularly, they still seem to believe otherwise.

By all means Jodomar, leave America as it is. Just don't complain when people reveal it for the steaming pile of filth that it is. Were you stupid enough to think that Obama could wave his magic wand and make everything like he said he would in four years? He had to deal with a self-destructive economic policy, a country that was falling apart at the seams and the idiocy of his opponents. Everything he's done so far has been putting America in the right direction towards his vision, but people are apprently too stupid to see that, and were caught in a sense of faux-idealism from Obama initially, which was shattered when they realized their dreamlike perceptions of government did not measure up to reality, automatically making Obama the scapegoat for the country's problems.

[Unkn0wn]

What I can't get is how people don't understand Romeny's plan. It's quite simple really. He goes to congress and says I want a 20% across the board tax cut you work out how we get there. How is that hard to understand?  Then we as a country are sitting on my oil the all of the middle east combined and the government will not let us drill on it?HuhHuhHuhHuh? This alone could totally turn around are country with an estimated 500 billion barrels of oil which would last of more then 2000 years. I'm all for green energy but we have options available to us right now to drastically decrease the price of fuel along with creating new jobs and lowering overall costs of goods. It is just plan stupid that we are not taking advantage of this right now.

I could go on for days but what Obama has been saying is just not true, look at the facts. Did you know to help pay for Obama care that a new tax was added to the sale of your home? Isn't that a tax on middle income families? O and you also get and extra quarter of a point attached to your mortgage if you don't put down 25% on a new home loan, I think that's a tax on middle class families as well not to mention my health care going up by $120 dollars a year.  Did I mention that my fathers company had to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars hiring a firm to figure out what this health care meant for them? They could have hired a few more people with that money. If the bush tax cuts do not get extended you will be looking at a serious housing problem with the debt forgiveness on short sales being taxed again. That's going to create a nice little mess. Then you have the tax  increases going up which definitely doesn't give incentives for people to hire, especially publicly traded companies who look for every and each way to minimize costs.

I'm sorry but where do you get your facts? Fox news is not a credibly source for anything mind you, and I honestly don't buy into any of the bullshit you've just spouted. Lower taxes by 20% FOR EVERYONE (Yes, even the richest, why do they need lower taxes in the first place?), at a time when government debt is massive? Go from there? So you are willing to follow this man into office, with this vague economic plan that promises you a tax cut without also explaining where the money for that tax cut is going to come from?

In regards to the oil reserves. The US is not sitting on 500 billion barrels of oil, lol.
http://www.eia.gov/naturalgas/crudeoilreserves/ The correct figure, and we are talking crude oil here, is 22 billion barrels. That's 2% of the world's total reserves. And the US consumes about 20 million barrels of oil, a day. You do the math. Sustained long term energy security? Not even close.  Yes, there's also other sources of oil, like oil shale, but most of those sources are either not commercially viable or technically viable to exploit at this point in time. Obama is certainly no green president, unfortunately, and drilling has gone up more in his presidency than it has under G. W. Bush...

Obama care secret taxes? Again, blatant lies.
http://taxfoundation.org/blog/would-obamacare-health-care-reform-tax-sale-your-home-probably-not

Do your fact checking homework yourself next time, jodomar.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

As an aside, I'd commend the man even more if he tried to "sneak" through a firearm sale ban.

[Killer344]

lol @ Jodomar

Romney ftw, god knows CoD/BF3 need new sources of inspiration!

[PonySlaystation]

You know, countries that all have much lower crime-rates, unemployment rates and social inequality - while maintaining tax rates far higher than the US, and social security schemes that. You know. Exist.

That's only because citizens in UK, Sweden and Norway want a government. But in the US they don't want government interference so they commit crimes, don't get jobs and don't share their money.

The Americans need firearms in case the redcoats invade. They don't want universal healthcare, they want freedom of choice. Government ≠ Freedom.

[Mysthalin]

The thing is I don't want America to be like Britain, Sweden, and Norway. There's a reason why people left those countries to come here in the first place

Most British citizens that migrated to America in the early 18th century were forced to do it due to the actions of completely unregulated companies operating in an abusive form of "The Capitalist Free Market". Swedish and Norwegian people.. really haven't migrated all that much, and those who have done that did so to escape religious persecution. You know, the free market you seem to hold in such high regard, and the sort of religious persecution that the US would see should the bible-thumping portion of it's populace (predominantly republican) ever got their way. There's been surprisingly low migration from all these countries to the USA after the welfare state became a thing in Europe.

the mortgage tax has nothing to do with bad regulations and everything to do with funding Obama care

So you're saying that, despite this mortgage tax, the housing bubble has been re-inflated, people are buying houses near every day and banks are giving out cash for this willy-nilly?
You will notice that I said the extra tax revenue is a cool bonus to the self-imposing regulation. What you need to understand is that not everything is black or white, and you CAN, in fact, sometimes kill two birds with one stone.

I'd rather have a successful business person give it a go then a fail president for a second term full of even more fail.

Which part of Obama's presidency failed more? The whole finally pulling out of Iraq thing, or over-turning the greatest economic recession in the past 20 years? Running a business is not the same as running a country.

that government involvement also had a huge part in why this happened in the first place which Mr. Frank had a huge part in.

The only thing that the government actively did to help the crisis happen was to cut the FED's interest rates. The oficial "start" of the recession in the USA is held to be 2007. Now, my US Political History is very sketchy, but I'm REASONABLY certain Obama wasn't exactly elected as president by then.

I want to see Romney win as entitlements, larger government, and outrageous spending is just not going to get us there.

Except.. it already has. The USA is reporting growth after it's consistent quantitative easing effort. The UK, by contrast, after introducing persistent budget cuts, is looking at a double-dip recession.

He has brought 5 dollar gas prices, added to an already ludicrous debt

I thought Obama was president of the USA, not leader of OPEC? Guess I was wrong.

... An already ludicrous debt caused by a Republican government that had been in power for 8 years prior.

can't get his facts straight about libya

This I'd love to hear more about.

tried to sneak through a trade agreement banning all firearms

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/obama-calls-for-renewal-of-assault-weapons-ban/

Correct me if I'm wrong, but assault weapons do not really mean "all firearms". Or am I wrong? I'm probably wrong.

invest in shady businesses who contribute to his campaign

You mean, lobbyism is frowned upon by the Republicans? I never knew Republican candidates accepted no money and gave no favours to anybody ever.  My entire world-view has been utterly shattered!

I'm sorry if you're all socialist here but I'm not and nor do I ever want to be apart of a country that supports it. That's why I live in America stop trying to make us like Europe you see how that's working out for them.

There's a difference between being socialist and thinking that sometimes government intervention is a good idea. Just like putting corn-cobbs in your ears and reading the bible out loud as you fuck your hot cousin doesn't necessarily make you a republican.

Considering Scandinavia is universally agreed upon to have the highest quality of human life in the world, I'd really think long and hard before shouting bloody murder about "how Europe turned out to be".

[PonySlaystation]

Considering Scandinavia is universally agreed upon to have the highest quality of human life in the world, I'd really think long and hard before shouting bloody murder about "how Europe turned out to be".

Pfft, Communist propaganda.

Russia had socialism, look at how they turned out.

[Mysthalin]

Not sure if Pony is trolling or not...