calli balance Red stuff are the nerf suggestions

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[LiquiDeath]

lol, p4 makes maybe 1 cali go a lil back.

but again what about 4 calis in 3v3? or you dont want to read what suits you? again 3v3!

1 cali for p4, panther or whatever you are trying to scare it off, then after axis armor/flank decide where to go and dodge the barrage - second cali strikes, then 3rd and 4th finishes whatever your plan was.
Rinse and repeat after 2 mins...
do you get it or are you still retarded about it?

but I dont think cali is OP, on the opposite I seek friends for wondersome 5-6 cali on same time - games as allies on 3v3 bocage, should be fun you say...

[hans]

Personally is not the general consensus of the mod forum, just because the cali bites back and you cant kill it with a single schreck squad doesnt mean its broken or needs main gun removed.

any axis armor makes the cali retreat even P4's

any axis armor screening a squad of screcks seems to force the cali inot a corner which it usually does not come out of

huh? thats why i wrote personally 

PS: i dont want to theocraft with ya, but hey, dont think that the calli has no atg support that makes ur p4 or panther shit pants xD

[tank130]

do you get it or are you still retarded about it?

Please refrain from the personal attacks


I agree the current meta game of excessive Callie usage is annoying at best.
 
I think we have a few problems.
- Adding a main gun to an artillery unit with out an additional high cost, is bad design.
- Having the ability to have 3 in a company is bad design.

[hans]

(..)
- Adding a main gun to an artillery unit with out an additional high cost, is bad design.
- Having the ability to have 3 in a company is bad design.
(..)

good points. So maybe additional middle tier4 option to limit callis to 1? But then u have to discuss if the price is justified ...

personally i think that the price for the calli is already quite high, too. Its just that u get 3 full shermans with the mid tier 4. Without u have 3 callis but few fuel for some tanks.


Maybe lower pop and price of the normal calli and give the maingun calli limit of two and the currrent pop and price?

calli:

pop 10
cost manpower 450 fuel 300 (in line with the priest)


calli maingun:

pop 12 (limit 2)
cost manpower 500 fuel 365

[Mysthalin]

Or, here's an idea. How about we stop using lazy proxies for balance like unit limits and try actually balancing units for cost?

[tank130]

Or, here's an idea. How about we stop using lazy proxies for balance like unit limits and try actually balancing units for cost?

Myst, you are very knowledgeable with stat information and use a logical approach when determining a units power level. That's why I find it so surprising that you would make such a silly statement as the one above.

If there is one thing that has been proven over and over again in this mod, it is that a single unit can be balanced, but a problem occurs when multiples of the same unit are used.

A single Callie with upgun needs to be balanced one way, while 3 in the same company could not be resolved in the same way with out making the single use UP.

[Mysthalin]

Myst, you are very knowledgeable with stat information and use a logical approach when determining a units power level. That's why I find it so surprising that you would make such a silly statement as the one above.

Why, I've always hated hardcaps and for one very simple reason. A hard-cap doesn't remove the problem of "a unit becomes too strong when spammed" but merely hides the problem of "The unit is too strong, and it is particularly noticeable when it is spammed". If there is a problem with a unit - fix the unit. If there is a problem with a doctrine ability - fix the doctrine ability. Not sweep everything under the rug and hope mum doesn't notice with a hard-cap.

If there is one thing that has been proven over and over again in this mod, it is that a single unit can be balanced, but a problem occurs when multiples of the same unit are used.

Just like volks with grenades and fausts - which everybody wanted to limit with pool, with actual hardcaps and flat out grenade removals from volksgrenadiers because it is "Unbalencebl". Then I came along and told Unknown to raise Faust price from 30 to 40. Boom, problem instantly solved without being lazy or reactionist about it.

No, the problem IS the single callie with gun upgrade. In terms of extra firepower that it gets for cost it would be equivalent to giving the regular Sherman 75mm permanent, fully mobile IST lockdown (I.e. an extra gun at no extra cost). As if that wasn't enough, it also gives the calliope 15% more HP, a 5 times better recieved critical table and buffs (very well) other units with the same T4.

There are very, very few T4s in the game that do quite so much in such a little package. Compare this to the T4 which grants shermans a -1s reload, among other, inferior buffs. Or, if we're looking at doctrines with "new abilities" - how about the pathetic splash boost and the friendly-units-suppressing Tank Shock for KTs in the Bottom T4.

This problem is primarily caused by the fact that the regular Calliope is a ridiculous pile of wank. The barage is far from being great. Well, it is quite good at dealing some non-fatal damage to infantry - but considering the prevalence of healing in the game this is not particularly useful (if the game suddenly lost all healing such as medikits, the calliope would be a great anti-infantry attritioner).

This inherent weakness in the base unit makes it seem justified to give the green light for immensely good buffs. Much like the Walking Stuka and the mandatory 1.5 damage T3 it can get. It's shit anyway - what's the worst that can happen, right? Well, the worst that can happen is min-max divergent balancing where the base unit becomes under fire because the buffed unit is too good (thankfully, the Walking Stuka remains ineffective even with the T3, so no worries there).

If, instead, attention was put towards fixing the base unit - like, say, giving the calliope more rockets per barage so it can stand to kill infantry and support weapons (rather than more damage, which would unnecessarily punish mobile units like tanks caught in the barrage, or cooldown reductions, which would not help the inherent problem) - you could then have a much clearer view on what needs to be done with the buffed unit. In this case - if the concept of self-defending artillery is not something the community wants to get rid off - then look at dilluting the buffs the T4 gives. The options are simple:

* Keep the gun as is, but remove the criticals boost and health buff. The tank can defend itself from stragglers, but will still be vulnearable to concerted efforts - as it should. However, this involves a great deal of randomness due to the nature of criticals, so I'd personally prefer this:

*Keep the criticals and health boost, but make the gun fire twice as slow as the regular Sherman gun. It will still be able to pick off stragglers, and - if used well, lend it's support on the front with pot-shots, but not pose much of a threat to things that should by rights be dangerous to the artillery. On top of being "pseudo-realistic" in simulating a lower amount of ammo due to the need for space for the rockets. In terms of firepower boost it will not be much better than a 0.75 reload buff to a regular sherman - something that is conceivable in a Tier 4 ability.

Not only does this allow for the regular calliope to become useful - it also removes the incentive for somebody to load up on nothing but calliopes. Or, if a person still choses to do it - it comes at an actual cost in terms of tank-based firepower, as opposed to what it is now - a weakness the person would be aware of, and SHOULD pay for, having instead opted for serious artillery firepower.

[LiquiDeath]

+1 for mysthalin options

[RikiRude]

+1 myst


First off I wish people would pull their heads from their asses and stop saying "the calli is OP"

NO!

The USK kit Calli is OP. AND THAT'S IT! If you have a differing opinion please post a replay of an OP calli using any other T4, or T3 combo as myst has stated.

Second, the only way to really take care of these callis is sending 3-4 upgun pumas at one. Any other way is pretty tough even with combined arms. But seriously, if you think you will fight USK callis, please use team work and combined arms and rush the callis, watch a calli drop with your upgun pumas when used right, if it's a 3v3, send 5-6 of these to be sure. Or a panther and pumas maybe.

Third, what makes the calli so tough is at vet 1 it barely takes any damage. That's when they become a tough nut to crack and that's when they can laugh at a single P4, because they can dish out enough damage and can survive long enough for support to come.

[Tymathee]

nice myst.

I like the gun rof nerf, an idea i tried to get when it was first proposed but shot down.

Also feel like the tank critical should just be a part of the tank, its a sherman, not a truck.

also, raise damage to infantry armors, leave normal damage this way it can kill infantry better but wont do anything more to vehicles.

[RikiRude]

i just realized this too, calli is more expensive than hummel! by 45fu and 40mp.

[GORKHALI]

Well cali can defend it self and humel can't so it is understandable that cali is expensive then hummel,and hummel dies much faster then cali.

[nikomas]

Well cali can defend it self and humel can't so it is understandable that cali is expensive then hummel,and hummel dies much faster then cali.

Of all the re... Sigh, It can only do that with a T4 and doctrines are not balanced for price, thus the calli is ludicrusly expensive without USK.

[hans]

Of all the re... Sigh, It can only do that with a T4 and doctrines are not balanced for price, thus the calli is ludicrusly expensive without USK.

+1

[ick312]

to be honest,

i think the fact that the calli has better armor, and is harder to kill justifies the the slightly higher price. Also i think that the barrage is the best in the game. keep in mind that  the barrage hits very accurate in short range.

[nikomas]

Toughness is hardly the selling point of an artillery piece, I'd take a halftrack with the calli barrage if it would cut down on the price since it would be faster and cheaper than the sherman, if it doesn't have the main gun. But for the record...

Panther shots to kill Calli = 5
Puma vs. Calli = 10
Hellcat vs. Hummel = 4
Greyhound vs. Hummel = 8

BUT, while it takes less shots to kill from light by a small margin, there is a funny twist to this...

Puma Vs Calli Pen = LMS - 0.32/0.36/0.4
Hound Vs. Hum Pen = LMS - 0.25/0.31/0.38

You might have noticed it in game before, but the hummel is actually quite the boss shrugging of LV shells, this applies to the staghound as well but not the Stuart, that thing is bloody lethal as an artillery hunter.


Anyway, bottom line is if you factor in that the calli has supply truck (LOL) critical's* it's not actually that much tougher than the hummel when going up against it's basic hunters. So saying the price is justified on armour when the barrage is so hit and miss is frankly, complete bollocks.


*Supply Truck
Generally 5% chance for anything aside from small arms to damage engine from the front at green health, 20% at yellow... This includes mortars as well, it kind of sucks, hard.
Also, the only red crit is 100% destroy, the first shot throwing it in the red will kill it.

So make no mistake, without USK it's not as tough as a regular Sherman by any means, it's also slower than the sherman by about 20%.

[hans]

to be honest,

i think the fact that the calli has better armor, and is harder to kill justifies the the slightly higher price. Also i think that the barrage is the best in the game. keep in mind that  the barrage hits very accurate in short range.

i wont deny that, but 12 pop and higher price for a unit that only shoots sometimes is not worth it. The battlefield shows u that quite clearly: take a look at the amount of Non USK callis these days. Without USK 3 callis in a company are very useless.

The higher price is probably justified for its survivability, but the impact on the battlefield is the same or even worse than other arty units. Its supposed to do the same, sit wait shoot and repeat... + Some doctrines do effect the power of the arty pieces alot more than it does in the armour doc. Hummel gets inc and priest gets also lots of buffs. The only thing that supports the calli in the armour doc is the mid tier 4 maingun and armour buff. But still it does not support the arty function of the calli.

Personally the price for a non USK calli is too high. The USK calli is a different story.

[RikiRude]

well apparently straight up calling people idiots for assuming the only calli in the game is a USK calli didn't work.

anyone that bitches about calli, grab two, or heck grab three of them, put them in a top T4 or bottom T4 armor company and face a company that uses hummels. then please tell us about your experience with the callis AMAZING arty barrage 

[PonySlaystation]

The difference is that armor isn't a dedicated artillery doctrine. They also have Pershings, T17s, mark target jeeps, HE shermans and APCR hellcats. Much more versatility and different buffs. Mid T4 with incendiary Hummel is the only one that can supersede the Calliope but that T4 also doesn't come with a lot of other useful buffs.

[Tymathee]

arty wise i'd take a normal hummel over a normal callie but thats just me Im sure.