some Balance ideas

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[ick312]

ahahaha go and play, see how axis stuff perform vs allied stuff.

If you tell me where that modifier is fine: where do i find it? its not in abilities, nor in the targettables.
Ah i see u r right with this one: does it change anything => no still to slow for its price/performance

Hicks think a second how much shoots does a KT, which is charging an atg, take. tell me a number, lets say 4. Lets say 3 dont penetrate and 1 penetrates, thats realistic. That a total damage of 375. 1/5 of total health... ok but he killed that atg. y if it the atg stands alone. every allied player will have at least stickies or another pak:
stickes are bad because they can force you to move back. Lets look how it is with a second pak: yep 750 damage for the spearhead tank: 1/3 of its health for killing 5 pop, with 18 and for being so slow that u can shift fronts: bad deal

[Hicks58]

With regards to the KT:

You would have to be a total fucking moron to have not dealt with the threat in this time.

Dealing with the threat means taking it out OR evading it. If you run a KT into more than a single ATG, you deserve whatever you get.

If you tell me where that modifier is fine: where do i find it? its not in abilities, nor in the targettables.

EDIT: Just for you, a picture of the modifier in the RGD's:

http://i.imgur.com/3gT3g.png

[RikiRude]

i think some of the units mentioned need to be changed, but i dont think you posted any changes that are actually good. hicks sums it up quite nicely, but I don't think all these units are "fine"

gwagons def need some work, same with Tiger, AB sucks because half their shit doesn't even work. I'd like to know what the dev team has done with some units.

either way, grens are probably one of the most perfect units right now, there's not a damn thing wrong with them!

[Mysthalin]

Ick, your ideas suck.

The Tiger is by no means as horrible as you think it is, and your suggestion does precisely 0 to help it alleviate any of the problems it has as a tank. What it needs is either a slightly higher speed to become more manageable, or a slightly higher moving accuracy rate so that it does not have to stop before each shot (which is very difficult to do effectively with a low base speed)

Your Aura proposal? Sounds awesome. Let me just stack with a defensive player and his 1.35 acc 1.3 dmg officer aura. You think 214 dmg/shot shreks that hit half the time at long range will be a bit much? Nah, I don't think that either. Let's just do it!

Similarly, the KT's primary issue is not with it's survivability. Hick's estimate of requiring 30 seconds before death occurs in front of 3 ATGs is actually very unforgiving to the King Tiger. The 3 ATGs need to fire 7 rounds each (6 reload cycles) before the KT will reach a critical level, and this takes zero account of the fact the KT does this thing where it fires back.

What the KT does need is an improvement in it's accuracy against infantry. With the current accuracy it has a higher than 4% chance to do absolutely nothing to a 6-man squad of infantry after the shell splashing over every single member of a squad. And that's at short range while both the KT and the infantry happen to be stationary. Add in range or movement and you're better off getting a panther up to shoot the infantry.

However, even with this gaping hole the KT is still a good tank. It's just very few people know how to use it. Ask Wind's opinion of the KT I used in a game with him recently, while being completely drunk. He himself attested that the KT was better than all the KTs he had seen in the past month put together - and frankly, until people learn to use the KT I don't believe any buff it gets will get rid of the 1-kill KT deaths in the hands of noobs.

Airborne change? Lol, I'd definitely go for that. 24 airborne guys land in, each enjoying 89 HP/man, double their usual effective rifle DPS (carbines becoming grenadier rifles would border on being an understatement) and RRs that deal 90 damage per shot as a base.

Why yes officer, I'll take one-shooting panthers with my 4-squad blob at long range while being able to take on KCH without issue. Sounds awesome. Stormtroopers? lollllll.



Your panzergren and grenadier changes are quite frankly laughable. Soldier armour being granted to panzergrens (together with the health buff), like I've told you a million times before has made them better in nearly every single possible way, except when fighting BARs. You are welcome to go look through the EiRR Balance forums to when the change was first implemented for the statistical analyses me, gamesguy and others did on the issue all confirming the exact same fact. That is, if they've started teaching mathematics in Germany. Our experience with Bigdick and Aloha at the time indicated otherwise.

The panzergrenadiers even got a further boost out of the deal, in the form of improved firepower from the free G43 that they got. The PG got BETTER, not worse, ever since the change has been made - and reverting them to 55 Hp and Soldier armour would be the biggest nerf ever in the current metagame, where tanks and splash damage are even more common than they were back then.


Your geschutzwaggen change... Ridiculous. Make what is essentially a marder completely useless at long-range, while making it ludicrous at short range? Why would you do that? You talk of "difficulties in dealing with circle-strafing tanks", whereas what I see is me plopping down a bunch of tank traps and wedging my geschutz between them. Any allied tank killed by a single 200 FU tank destroyer in a matter of 10 seconds? Yes please.

[Ahnungsloser]

Your panzergren and grenadier changes are quite frankly laughable. Soldier armour being granted to panzergrens (together with the health buff), like I've told you a million times before has made them better in nearly every single possible way, except when fighting BARs. You are welcome to go look through the EiRR Balance forums to when the change was first implemented for the statistical analyses me, gamesguy and others did on the issue all confirming the exact same fact. That is, if they've started teaching mathematics in Germany. Our experience with Bigdick and Aloha and the time indicated otherwise.

Sidenote:
I totally agree to your post to Hicks post and the fact that ick made some weird thoughts on a bunch of units.
But I don't agree with your statement that their is no mathematic teaching in germany. I'm sure that I sometimes posted some weird shit here in that forum but I promise you it's mostly because I have difficulties to explain scientific coherences like statistics in english with the right terms or made a temporaly error because I forgot to consider something,. (We all do errors, huh?)

If I could speak/write technical English perfectly or you could speak german I swear that there could be world where we could have some nice conversations about the teachings from the RGD gods.. .

Cheers.

[Mysthalin]

Ahnungs - just to clarify, I do not think Germans do not receive any sort of mathematical education. I'm pretty sure the strength of Germany's financial sector today, not to mention it's long-standing prestige in the Automotive as well as other engineering industries is testament to this. It was merely a jibe at ick, and how he currently reminds me of the arguments had within the community in the past with two other members who also happen to German.

In short, I don't think Germans don't know maths. I just made a biting jibe at ick for being silly.

[Mysthalin]

I forgot to mention the Hellcat.

There are two reasons why the Hellcat went up in price and popcap in the "recent" change. One of them was the severely increased penetration rates that have made the Hellcat actually reliable as a Tank Destroyer. The other one was an increase in Health from 400 to 500. And you wish to reduce this to 350 HP? Do you realise how massive of a change that is? You're talking about defensive-buffed panzershreks quite literally two-shooting the tank straight to death. Even a greyhound would survive through more punishment than that.

Essentially what it would do is make it a glorified Upgun Hotchkiss with an in-built sight increase and the iffy ability to crush infantry... Except at 12 population... and 320 Fuel. You would render the tank completely and utterly useless for it's cost - and reducing the cost/pop would only create a new issue where Hellcat wolfpacks are just sent out like greyhounds to do the lulz. And unlike Panzer Elite, you wouldn't be tying up a fundamentally important part of your pool (Vehicle pool for PE) to do a trollzy job.

No, the problem with the Hellcat is that it is currently too powerful against Panthers and Tigers specifically. Simply reducing the penetration by 0.1 against these targets would probably solve the issues.

[PonySlaystation]

The KT as a basic unit is a bit underwhelming. When it does hit, it does a lot of damage but the turret is too slow to be able to hit tanks reliably, the accuracy is too low to be able to hit infantry reliably. So a smaller buff to the KT could be an improvement. But the KT also lacks doctrine buffs. What makes the Tiger and the Pershing useful is largely doctrine buffs (and double repair) and the bottom tree of Terror is of course useless.

The problem with Panzergrenadiers is that they don't get regular grenades. The incendiary grenade is only a utility weapon. It can be used as a deterrent to keep the enemy out of buildings but it won't kill anything. This was fine in vCOH when they got grenades earlier than everyone else and thus had a big advantage. That advantage does not exist in EIR, so it makes even less sense that they are 25 MU. This is why I think the grenade should have some initial explosion effect and be able to deal some damage to infantry and support weapons similar to the effect of the stielhandgranate.The incendiary effect can still remain but with reduced effect, like reducing the duration in half.

Why do I think this? Because grenades is one of those things that improve the gameplay. It makes a unit much more versatile, it takes skill to use but also it can always be avoided. From a balance standpoints it's very unfair that all the other factions get regular grenades while Panzergrenadiers are left with these inferior grenades.

[LiquiDeath]

I would like some change on assault grens.

recently I got in argument with nikomas about rifles raping IHTs, stats came back and fort from him, IRL exp from me - interestingly it came out of it that unupgraded rifles (garands?) rape IHT in second due to some RGDs coding even if stats say otherwise if I undersood him right.

Could someone lookup assault gren stats too? they seem fishy (and squishi) - believe me I tried them in various situations (in repairing HT, behinf g43, various ROE, ranges etc.) for half year, to have some at least decent AI option for PE. Trust me they are completely useles, I gave up and deleted all of them after game when my full mp44 pgrens lost immediatly 1 men from engaging unupgraded sappers, lol wtf.

Only viable option seems to load them to IHT with spare parts rep, problem is however: A. iht will die soon to unupgraded rifles or flies nearby very soon and then assault pgrens in the open will follow to valhalla shortly thereafter... B. loading in iht doesnt work, your troops stays in spawn, hassle


So if some1 manages to find a way how to add a lil bit 'ooompf' for these guys, it would be awesome, as PE TH seriously lacks in AI imho

[Mysthalin]

IHT's most definitively not die to rifles in a matter of seconds. They do in vCoH, not in EiRR. If my memory serves me correctly you need to spend 45-60 seconds completely stationary at short range in front of a BAR squad, with your rear faced to the BAR squad before the IHT has a realistic chance of dying. Something like 5 minutes if being fired at from the front... Not really a great chance of death there.

[RikiRude]

LiquiD are you even playing the same game? The rifles even in green cover and with triple bars will be suppressed before they go significant amount of damage to the IHT.

If we are talking about LAHT or mortar HT, yes normal rifles will do some damage to them.

[LiquiDeath]

...so thought nikomas 

[LiquiDeath]

nikomas even did some playtest and he then confirmed rifles (garands?) rape iht pretty fast

[TheVolskinator]

..in vCoH.

[Poppi]

god i hope the AB doc gets a total rework

[8thRifleRegiment]

Ick, your ideas suck

[Valexandes]

Honestly I think M18s are fine. They can't kill a panther on their own and they can't do much anything to inf and also any armor can damage them well enough.

The panther is more expensive but has the edge on range and also is less susceptible to smaller tanks while the M18 can be damaged by a much wider range of vehicles.

[Mysthalin]

M18s are fine <...> They can't kill a panther on their own <snip>

Oh shit, argument reversal

[nikomas]

The panther is one of the best armoured units in the game, the fastest tank in its size class and has a good gun. Using tropes he is our jack of all trades "lighting bruiser". Even if we tally up the cost of his 3 strengths a little more gets added on top of this because his only weakness is the hardest of hardcounters and he can take most of them on (firefly) given he gets the drop on them.

To prevent the character from becoming a Game Breaker or a Story Breaker Power, the Lightning Bruiser may have weaknesses beyond strength, speed, and toughness: lack of range, magical capability, or a high resource cost are some of the challenges these characters can face.

HOWEVER, Versatility comes at a price in both performance and cost effectiveness against specific targets, he is going to do everything pretty well but not really excel like the Cat does at tank hunting, not with the same cost efficiency anyway. Also to bear in mind is while the added cost of his heavy armor might not do that much in a battle with hellcat, it renders him night invulnerable to Sherman and below, a significant advantage.

Our Hellcat on the other hand is a heavilly specialized "fragile speedster", he has the speed and AT firepower like the panther but none of the armour and way less AI firepower by comparison. Also due to his role as a tank hunter he is supposed to be most cost effective in that regard than the panther.

So in a straight up encounter with a hellcat and a panther the Hellcat IS going to have superior performance by design, it's fundamentally balanced like that imo.



God I love tv tropes btw