Zero Dark Thirty

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[Sachaztan]

Since there hasn't been enough drama on the forums lately, I thought I'd create a highly infectious poll and thread to liven the place up.

For those who haven't seen or heard about it Zero Dark Thirty is a movie about the hunt for, and slaying of, Osama bin Laden (henceforth known as OBL). In it torture is portrayed as a nasty but necessary business that the heroic CIA agents has to do in order to defend civilization from the powers of darkness.

So fellow forumites, what do you think about torture? And do you think it was instrumental in getting OBL like in the movie?

[Spartan_Marine88]

Torture is unreliable and its the major reason i see it as so wrong. If you could reliably extract they truth from someone with it i might shrug my shoulders and see it as a necessary evil, but the chances are  too high for them  to tell you what they think you want to hear just to get the pain to stop which means that you are possibly just getting nowhere.

[Unkn0wn]

They didn't find Osama bin Laden's position by torturing someone, I don't even know why they are trying to sell it this way in the movie. There is really no excuse for torture and quite frankly it's disgusting that the US still hasn't shut down Guantanamo.

[Sachaztan]

Alright so you liberal hippies has thrown the bait, now all we need is some real patriots here.

[aeroblade56]

Meh, as far as i see it you have a better chance of getting something rather then nothing.

[Hicks58]

If torture gave consistently reliable results, I wouldn't be so torn up about it on the grounds that it's actually getting you somewhere.

Most of the time? It just ends up in false confessions to bring an end to it, much like Spartan said. About the only thing it's consistently useful for, is confirming something you already know. In that case though? It's only ever so slightly sadistic.

I'd personally only approve torture if it were well and truly the last option. Not because of it's moral implications, but because of just how hit and miss it is. There's usually better ways to get information. More costly in resources or potential loss of life? Yes. But undoubtedly more reliable.

[NightRain]

Didn't German Gestapo have a rather successful history with tortures and confessions?

[Vermillion_Hawk]

I'm going with the position that it's not torture that's ineffective, but merely the implementation of it in the American intelligence sector which is producing inconsistent results. From the literature on the subject I've read, many times the agents ask the wrong kinds of questions during physical torture, i.e. yes/no questions, when in reality they should be prying for information.

Asking the right questions is most of it, and in cases where you have a dedicated and professional corps of torturers (the Gestapo example), you get results.

The moral side of the issue is mostly depending on who you're fighting. When you're fighting a multinational terrorist organization, and a fundamentalist one at that, chances are they're not going to abide by the Geneva conventions. In cases like that, I'd say torture is justified at the very least.

[Mysthalin]

Disagree with torture, mainly due to it producing little to no results. If it achieves nothing, why have it?

[Baine]

Torture is only tolerable (from my pov) if you know the one you torture knows what you ask him for and if he did serious crimes etc.

[Poppi]

Didn't German Gestapo have a rather successful history with tortures and confessions?

people on this forum rather boast about nazi tactics and its effectiveness and just knock american tactics calling them improper.

guaranteed these american agencies have many many years of data and experience of ways to get information other than torture. and yes they employ all ways of getting information. maybe .5% of our confessions come from that place called Guantanamo. And i think torture is the least used form of practice. Moral POV can be tricky but remember its supposedly against bad people and to save more lives.

about the movie. havent seen it. My guess its just another SEAL team promotion video.

[Tymathee]

positive reinforcement works more than torture, at least physical.

If you really want to get into someones mind, u gotta get at 'em mentally. Things like sleep deprivation, giving them little food or water, playing nicki minaj songs over and over again, those things work.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

positive reinforcement works more than torture, at least physical.

If you really want to get into someones mind, u gotta get at 'em mentally. Things like sleep deprivation, giving them little food or water, playing nicki minaj songs over and over again, those things work.

That is classified as torture, in American poli-speak as an EIT (Enchanced Interrogation Technique).

[Poppi]

positive reinforcement works more than torture, at least physical.

If you really want to get into someones mind, u gotta get at 'em mentally. Things like sleep deprivation, giving them little food or water, playing nicki minaj songs over and over again, those things work.

ya when people hear about American torture or interrogation they think water boarding and physically hurting them. Which im sure thats only done maybe 1/10,000 interrogations.  

There are far more better means as stated....which i can tell you that the CIA (etc) know more about the that stuff than these people posting on the forums.

[Sachaztan]

Guardian article about the use of torture in Zero Dark Thirty

[DarkSoldierX]

Well, my option isn't really available in the poll.

You should add "Torture is fine as long as the individual getting tortured has evidence against him linking him to a serious offense" Keep in mind I don't think torture is evil at all when used in this way.

And to add to what vermillion said earlier, its sort of a double standard when it comes to torturing islamic terrorist. (Or any terrorist for that matter) The islamic paramilitary organizations don't give a damn about the geneva convention. They will use what ever they can to who ever who may be even remotely linked to their enemy. And I think that may apply to nearly ALL of the islamic paramilitary/military organizations now days. Including the so called freedom fighters in Libya.

[aeroblade56]

I would tortute the shit out of this damned Dev team that has taken to the mines moria lately.

[acker]

And to add to what vermillion said earlier, its sort of a double standard when it comes to torturing islamic terrorist. (Or any terrorist for that matter) The islamic paramilitary organizations don't give a damn about the geneva convention. They will use what ever they can to who ever who may be even remotely linked to their enemy. And I think that may apply to nearly ALL of the islamic paramilitary/military organizations now days. Including the so called freedom fighters in Libya.

You could use the same logic about criminals and criminal organizations. The Mafia doesn't give a shit about due process when they order hits on US citizens. Why bother giving suspected Mafia members due process?

How about suspected serial killers, bandits, or rapists? Is it fine to torture them, too?

[Jodomar]

I think you all know what I'm going to say about this so I'll leave it at this: When you throw the Geneva convention out the window, so do we. For information gathering purposes, it's much more useful to hurt someone else that they care about then it is to hurt them physically. Just have to mentally fuck the person and he'll spill the beans. Look to the other seal movie " Act of Valor" which was an actual promotion of seal teams and that has a good mental mind fuck torture scene in it.

Here are some torture methods used in the past:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQrisuRj22Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkGi9-Mb-r0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjDIrjg1M9s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b98Qp2xatUA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHfv-NrPxnw

[Unkn0wn]

'It's okay because they do it too'. Oh wow, I totally hadn't thought about this. I suppose thinking like a 4-year old IS the right way to go about your international politics!