Infantry riding on tanks

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[AmPM]

Doctrines would be fine, if they were all created starting from tier 1, balanced, then move to tier 2, balance, etc.

Incremental change means plenty of time to work out issues.

[EliteGren]

As far as im concerned removing doctrines except for unlocks would be a great way to make the game so much more balanced.

Not without massive tradeoffs, we had a time when there were only bottom unlocks implemented, and while people found it to be "nice and "mostly balanced" after some time playercount rapidly dropped, simply because it's just getting bland and boring after some time.

Warmap and vet aren't gonna be enough to compensate for this, we have a lot of players here who mainly play for the doctrines and the buffs they give to build their company around them and work out multiple strats that would otherwise not be possible, effective or viable.

Have you seen OMG? Apparently they're so balanced that they've got threads suggesting that they purposely unbalance the game again to breath in some fresh air. The mods fucking dead because they've balanced it "too well"

Now add in that you want to remove the new units we've added and you've got one hell of a bland, same old, game.

[AmPM]

Not without massive tradeoffs, we had a time when there were only bottom unlocks implemented, and while people found it to be "nice and "mostly balanced" after some time playercount rapidly dropped, simply because it's just getting bland and boring after some time.

Warmap and vet aren't gonna be enough to compensate for this, we have a lot of players here who mainly play for the doctrines and the buffs they give to build their company around them and work out multiple strats that would otherwise not be possible, effective or viable.

Have you seen OMG? Apparently they're so balanced that they've got threads suggesting that they purposely unbalance the game again to get breath in some fresh air. The mods fucking dead because they've balanced it "too well"

Balance doesn't mean stagnation. You can have that with or without balance (See anytime from EIR's past where it is a long wait between patches). You can be dynamic and still have a balanced game, it just means a little more thought into things.

[tank130]

Have you seen OMG? Apparently they're so balanced that they've got threads suggesting that they purposely unbalance the game again to breath in some fresh air. The mods fucking dead because they've balanced it "too well"

You bring up a very good point. Many times people come on these forums and claim OMG has better balance, better availability system, better repair system, better community and more open dev team.

Meanwhile - OMG is essentially dead and Eirr keeps ticking. I am not knocking the OMG team, but why do people keep claiming it is better if it is not sustainable?

[AmPM]

Interesting gameplay factors can keep it fresh for sure.

Why are there not more varied debuff effects? We have slow, we have button, why not something that reduces turret rotation?

Explosions could shock infantry, reducing accuracy but allowing them to move still. Flamethrowers could have a 10% chance of exploding in a nice nebel style flame explosion every time they are hit.

Vehicles could probably be given interesting death effects, don't be near it when it explodes or your mans get hurt.

Hand grenades, might be able to be thrown back even. I mean hell, you could do a lot of things to make gameplay itself interesting.

Variable veterancy, where YOU choose what they improve at doing would go a long way too.

[TheVolskinator]

Those animations for mounting men on the cromwell and sherman are only useable in NIS (movie maker). Using them in-game is impossible; far better coders than we on the team have tried (and failed).

[brn4meplz]

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[PonySlaystation]

Hand grenades, might be able to be thrown back.

Yes, and sometimes infantry should be able to catch tank rounds and throw them back at the tank causing a big explosion in slow motion.

[EliteGren]

To conclude: Apart from a few retarded arguments there was nothing valid brought here in terms of arguments on how this would destroy balance or why we should not have this in, except when you got a new model or tanks only support it in cutscenes (I don't know how this is even possible)

"But theres halftracks bro" - But theres water man, why do you buy anything else if you want to hydrate yourself? It's cheaper than whatever-non-water-drink-you-have aswell! The answer is because it tastes better. And the same reason can be applied to tanks, no one freaking uses halftracks for anything other than to protect snipers from scouting units.

You could limit it to doctrines only too, if only the Cromwells and Shermans actually do support the animation. The British RE bottom T4 is lacking right now anyways, could replace the sprint aura with the ability to carry infantry around. See, there we have a cool new doctrine ability that people would enjoy.

EDIT: I see volsky, this makes the whole thing pretty moot then. If it's in COH2 though I would be all for seeing this implemented into some kind of doctrine

[8thRifleRegiment]

infantry riding on tanks was only ever used for transportation becuase the russians did not have enough halftracks, sittin on the tank in combat you ask to die as an easy target and if you want to sit behind the turret either hes going to deafen you when he fires, if not kill you. Or when he turns the turret, he will crush you. In eastern front mod the infantry have a huge accuracy modifier when riding on tanks, something like 75% more incomming accuracy

[nikomas]

Interesting gameplay factors can keep it fresh for sure.

Why are there not more varied debuff effects? We have slow, we have button, why not something that reduces turret rotation?

Explosions could shock infantry, reducing accuracy but allowing them to move still. Flamethrowers could have a 10% chance of exploding in a nice nebel style flame explosion every time they are hit.

Vehicles could probably be given interesting death effects, don't be near it when it explodes or your mans get hurt.

Hand grenades, might be able to be thrown back even. I mean hell, you could do a lot of things to make gameplay itself interesting.

Variable veterancy, where YOU choose what they improve at doing would go a long way too.

AmPm, I assume you realize that these are extremly hard to make happen, effort to payoff wise?

Because while I could rig up a bad version of one or two myself, most of those would need a substantial amount of time for the current team to put in for next to no gain gameplay wise... You'll get one or two "Oh, tank blew up nicely, cool!", after this it'll be forgotten entirely, that's how visual flair works as one adjusts to it extremely fast.

As for throwing back grenades? Not only is this impossible even if we doubled the timers on grenades (making them kinda useless), I'm pretty sure it can't be done without engine hardcoding to allow for interaction with thrown weapons period.

Explosions could shock infantry if I gave all explosions a stun modifier, however this would slant the game heavily in favour of explosive weaponry, move further from how vcoh explosives work and it would require a rework of every.single.explosive.weapon.in.the.ga me.

As for variable veterancy you have to keep in mind that this requires even more coding, it goes from one ability code per veterancy rank to at least two, at the very least doubling the amount of work. The alternative to this is what they did in vcoh as to have the vet universal for inf and tanks afaik, meaning very little variations on vet (so same vet for TB's and Assault grens, boring). Not only this but they are now made upgrades as well and they will need launcher integration as the only way to make it stick would be to code in veterancy "Upgrades" you can purchase in the launcher afaik.

Pretty sure button reduces turret rotation to.


Ideas like that are nice, but as I said before they are extremely impractical for a dev team of the current size and actually pretty impractical from even relics standpoint as far as I can tell.



Oh, don't get me wrong as I do not want to come off the wrong way but doctrines and stuff like that have such a better long term time invested/reward ratio than more flair stuff like this. At least as far as I know, just wanted to get that out there.

[Marlboroman]

To conclude: Apart from a few retarded arguments there was nothing valid brought here in terms of arguments on how this would destroy balance or why we should not have this in, except when you got a new model or tanks only support it in cutscenes (I don't know how this is even possible)

"But theres halftracks bro" - But theres water man, why do you buy anything else if you want to hydrate yourself? It's cheaper than whatever-non-water-drink-you-have aswell! The answer is because it tastes better. And the same reason can be applied to tanks, no one freaking uses halftracks for anything other than to protect snipers from scouting units.

You could limit it to doctrines only too, if only the Cromwells and Shermans actually do support the animation. The British RE bottom T4 is lacking right now anyways, could replace the sprint aura with the ability to carry infantry around. See, there we have a cool new doctrine ability that people would enjoy.

EDIT: I see volsky, this makes the whole thing pretty moot then. If it's in COH2 though I would be all for seeing this implemented into some kind of doctrine

> no valid arguments
> implying m10s/m18s/pershings with riflemen with stickies on them wouldnt be stupidly op
> implying it would primarily be best for allies
> implying allies arent OP already.

[Marlboroman]

You bring up a very good point. Many times people come on these forums and claim OMG has better balance, better availability system, better repair system, better community and more open dev team.

Meanwhile - OMG is essentially dead and Eirr keeps ticking. I am not knocking the OMG team, but why do people keep claiming it is better if it is not sustainable?

honestly the reason omg is dead is the community was mostly very small and tight knit, you had groups of people playing teams together or even entire games together, OMG does have better balance, it has vcoh balance with a very few nifty units and doctrines.

[EliteGren]

Oh so NOW you're going to argue balance. When you stop contradicting yourself it might be worth arguing.

its a whole new gameplay feature a whole new type of thing to do and noone can predict wether it will be good for balance at all.

Again, when you stop contradicting yourself it might be worth arguing. But as it stands all I see is an axis biased moron who cries foul everytime his favourite doctrine gets nerfed, or rather, changed and only plays one faction and is pure shit on allies.

Theres not even a reason to argue since this is not possible anyway, but sticky rifles on tanks OP? It's already been established that when this was to be implemented the infantry would have a massive increase in modifiers and be really vulnerable to anything.

You'd probably lose men when the tank just takes a hit. I don't know your skill level but I assume you're pretty shit when you think that it's OP for someone to rush a sticky rifle tank at axis tanks and get a sticky off, you can prevent this with even rocksitter-level micro.

[Marlboroman]

why dont you come talk to me about being bad at allies when you use more than tanks and infantry while complaining about mobility

[EliteGren]

I don't think we're on the same page here. I'm not complaining about mobility, it's good as is, except that halftracks aren't being used as transports right now and could use a little love.

The whole idea of this was to introduce a new feature because it seemed possible to do so. The ability to carry infantry on tanks would allow a wide variety of new strats and a nice new shift in the meta even.

[Marlboroman]

i use halftracks as transport, i transport sticky squads into a tank blocked with a jeep, dont come complain to me if you arent willing to play outside your own narrow confort zone where infantry is infantry tanks are tanks and nothing good can come from experimenting.

[Hicks58]

I've ran a totally mechanised company a few times before as Armour with HT's. Pretty fun to use, and a HT .50cal + A Rifleman squad actually puts out a pretty neat amount of damage to anything but upgraded infantry.

Bit heavy on the vehicle pool though. Runs quickly into the reserve, especially if you want some dedicated armour... Could be worth looking at the pool price of HT's tbh.

[Marlboroman]

I've ran a totally mechanised company a few times before as Armour with HT's. Pretty fun to use, and a HT .50cal + A Rifleman squad actually puts out a pretty neat amount of damage to anything but upgraded infantry.

Bit heavy on the vehicle pool though. Runs quickly into the reserve, especially if you want some dedicated armour... Could be worth looking at the pool price of HT's tbh.

A general look on the vehicle pool is warranted IMO especially axiswise as allied LVs are generally better.

[EliteGren]

i use halftracks as transport, i transport sticky squads into a tank blocked with a jeep, dont come complain to me if you arent willing to play outside your own narrow confort zone where infantry is infantry tanks are tanks and nothing good can come from experimenting.

LOL, you and what army? The non existant army of HT transport users?  You are not even using the HTs for transport per se, which means getting troops to the frontline, my friend. You are using them as a suicide unit to get rifles close to a tank.