Why did PE get non doctrinal sniper units?

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[aeroblade56]

also, infantry gets zooks, armor gets a zook, and ab gets rrs...

Oh wow 1 zook for 55 munitions. Lets just halt the axis advance.

No but srsly the zook is not very good without buffs, let alone give em one.

[AmPM]

But will the sticky destroy a tank? How many stickies will it require me to destroy a tank if I am only using stickies, this is the part where you say "you need to use a AT gun and your own tanks to destroy tanks not the sticky because the riflemen don't have proper anti tank weaponry". Although it would be funny to kill a tank with only stickies it is not cost effective.

Also I am not comparing the roster sizes at all(didn't even mention anything about that), Its just makes me question why if PE were given support weapons (and probably the coming MG for the PE) because they didn't have support weapons why don't the US get a proper anti tank infantry squad if they have none?

I mean I have played tons of COH mod's and although they are not similar at all to EiR they still address the problem of the US not having anti tank infantry by adding it in some way (look at armored infantry from battle of the bulge). I mean no one would cry OP if you can just allow the riflemen to have a bazooka upgrade(non doctrinal of course) or something.

Show me a single schrek squad killing a tank....

I would much rather take a Schrek hit over a Sticky hit.

As to your point, it's because US are different than Wehr. The US has TD's and ATGs to fill that role, Wehr has the Panther and PaK. Schreks are supplemental AT, just like stickies or zooks, their job is to keep tanks away from ATGs or to assist another primary AT asset.

Airborne RR's, Tank Buster dual Schrek and Stormies are another matter entirely, but they are all doctrinal and costs a fortune in MU (not so much for the AB...).

I hope they don't give PE an MG team, there is no reason for it, they have tons of suppression with HMG scout cars (should have the ability changed though so they don't have to "setup" on a piece of ground, just cuts their speed to 0 while the ability is toggled) so that they can be used offensively and be placed in areas that have other shit on the ground (urban areas, I'm looking at you).

I would be much happier with fixes to PE pool costs for IHT's and AC's so that they can be played as a flanking force, hell, toss in the ability for PGrens to buy a light repair for 30-40mu so they can fix their IHT a second time. Would make PE more unique and give vanilla PGrens a purpose in life. (Yes, they could repair bigger stuff too, would be pretty darn nice)

[terrapinsrock]

Oh wow 1 zook for 55 munitions. Lets just halt the axis advance.

No but srsly the zook is not very good without buffs, let alone give em one.

Depends what you shoot at.

Shoot the back of a Panther? pfffffff good luck with that

Shoot up a IHT with 2 rifles with zooks and you can do some work, hell shoot two zooks into the back of a Tiger and you'll get some nice damage due to the modifiers zooks have against Tigers.

[PonySlaystation]

Infantry have rangers with bazookas and bazooka upgrade for riflemen.
Airborne have airborne recoilless rifles and bazooka upgrade
Armor have bazooka upgrade for riflemen

They have handheld AT, it's just bound to doctrines.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Shoot up a IHT with 2 rifles with zooks and you can do some work

An IHT kept at range will kill those riflemen with zooks and suppress them. On rangers? thats a different story. Then again fireup is just stupid.

all factions should have at least one non-doctrinal hand held at piece.

brits have piats
wher and pe have shreks
americans have nothing

[SpaceHamster]

Show me a single schrek squad killing a tank....

I would much rather take a Schrek hit over a Sticky hit.

I will find you more instances of a grenadier single panzershreck squads killing tanks and vehicles then I will ever find of riflemen stickies killing tanks and vehicles, how ever that is another matter entirely.

It seems all I got out of this conversation was that the real reason why the fallshimjager sniper was added was because the PE was a weak faction with out it.

Since I am already exhausted of discussing a circular logic argument with which there is no end to, I will just agree to disagree.

[AmPM]

An IHT kept at range will kill those riflemen with zooks and suppress them. On rangers? thats a different story. Then again fireup is just stupid.

all factions should have at least one non-doctrinal hand held at piece.

brits have piats
wher and pe have shreks
americans have nothing

Why? Nobody has stated a reason WHY every doctrine needs the same things.

Where is my Heavy Anti-Everything tank for PE? Where is my Crocodile for Wehr?

Are the US Doctrines fine? Yes, they are fine as is.

Is PE fine? No, it needs some adjustments (but not man packed support units)

[Spartan_Marine88]

Why? Nobody has stated a reason WHY every doctrine needs the same things.

Where is my Heavy Anti-Everything tank for PE? Where is my Crocodile for Wehr?

Are the US Doctrines fine? Yes, they are fine as is.

Is PE fine? No, it needs some adjustments (but not man packed support units)

Panther

Flammen Halftracks

We weren't discussing US doctrines but the basic entity that is US

we weren't debating PEs weakness, but how nearly every army in EIRR has gotten tuned due to the fact that they were made for VCOH and things need to be put into the different style that EIRR operates in. However certain people who dislike change can't accept that the only army completely unchanged (US) should be updated to be brought into line with the non-tiered gameplay that EIRR is.

However, if you really feel differently there are more who think like you over at OMG mod, where they felt changing from VCOH stats were wrong. 

[AmPM]

Wait, Panther is good at gibbing infantry blobs like a Tiger/Pershing?

The Flammenhalftrack can take hits like a Croc and has a .50cal and dozer option?

IF the US had a weakness that needed filling you would have a valid argument, but they don't. The US without doctrines is strong, with doctrines it is very strong.

There really isn't any room for improvement without breaking things. If zooks became more prevalent then you would have to buff PE even more, which throws balance off vs CW. It's a cascade effect. A dual zook squad would force changes to PE and rebalance of other units like Puma's and HT's. Probably even STuGs and P4's.

Just like if dual schreks became a standard upgrade again and doctrines added +1 to make them 3...

[Spartan_Marine88]

How do you know the US is strong when you don't play?

[NightRain]

Panzer Elite, the loved bastard child of EIRR. The faction which is the hardest to play no matter WHAT the metagame is. You look at panzer elite, you look at all of its units. They look great, they feel great, they however, arent. PE army requires masses of coordination and syncronation. For instance. Let us look at Panzer Elite's specialized infantry:

4 men with MP44s. Abilities: Sprint, Inc nade.
4 men with 2x Volksgrenadier like rifles, 1x G43, one Panzerschreck. Sprint, AT nade.

On paper they look good, but in reality they aren't. They both have normal infantry armor and thus die to anti personel weapons pretty quickly. Now do we need to buff them? Maybe? No. They are not meant to operate alone. You see people, what other factions don't have, is a one, mean, fast, deadly, machine, albeit fragile.

Gentlemen, The Infantry Halftrack. The bane of Panzer Elite's exsistance. Put these units inside and they are immune to any damage taken until their vehicle pops to pieces. Be in mind that this popping only requires two anti tank gun hits so they are fragile. This is how PE infantry operates even in EIRR. Halftracks. PE isn't for defence. It is for offence. PE can't hold territory, not what can be thrown against it and in EIRR holding territory is 80% of the things you are trying to do. Territory gives you population thus more units to the field and PE can not hold it. This is the bolt that PE hates. If it can't move fluidly, it will end in a grindfest with lesser quality units that require sync in order to be effective.

It was mentioned. The Anti tank spam. Mass ammounts of anti tank guns, machineguns and enemy armor. Synergy of these 3 unit types makes PE cry the tears. These mentioned units brings only 20 pop. Add in a extra squad to get up to 5. If  panzer elite gets support weapon creeped, there is a very little a panzer elite player can do.

MG in a building? Yes, good luck trying to tear it out from there. A tank, sitting next to a anti tank gun? Yeah, go for it marder, you will take return fire. You need at bad luck 5 shots, anti tank gun only needs 3, guess which one has better accuracy? IHT charge in? Maybe, but it will cost you. No matter which angle you come from.

Mortar halftrack, Stukas. Mortar halftrack is the most viable option on panzer elite. It is the annoying bugger, but also a expensive unit. If you catch it, its gone. One can suicide a unit at it to destroy it to reduce PE's effect enormously. I won't even get started on a stuka. 4 rockets on a cooldown? After each shot it is just a non-upgunned tank sitting there and eating 8 pop.

Support weapon creep is the death of Panzer Elite, regardless of flanking, regardless of doing what ever you want to do. The more players are in the game, the worse it just gets, has anyone ever seen 5 anti tank guns pointing at each angles of approach? Yeah, that happens in every 3v3 you'll end up to.

Despite the access to the best rifle in game, the G43, they come on a platform with no healing. It is a unit that can hold its ground, but don't expect it to hold it for long. Not against elite infantry. Airborne is a death sentence to panzer elite. Their hit and run ability is beyond control. The only way for PE is to win that situation, is if the player who plays AB makes a mistake.

Sniper, no matter how silly it seems, is a good addition to panzer elite army. It gives a new doorway for strategies to counter support weapons and heavy infantry.

Please, whoever wants to even tell that Panzer Elite has a panther thus they have a heavy tank! You most likely have never played panzer elite with a panther. That is a huge chunk of fuel out of PE's fuel reserve, the precious resource which every PE requires and always needs to build up their army. PE's Anti Personel, Anti tank, it all costs fuel. What comes only out as infantry is gunfodder, units that are there for line of sight and capping.

[PonySlaystation]

I don't think there's any real reason why the single zook upgrade couldn't be a base upgrade instead of doctrine unlock.

Dual zooks on the other hand, that would probably take the spotlight away from rangers and airborne.

[AmPM]

Apparently you haven't been paying attention the last couple weeks.

I'm loving my Sherman Armor Coy.

AB is too easy mode though.

I've also been running Tank Destroyers and Blitz.

[CrazyWR]

Oh wow 1 zook for 55 munitions. Lets just halt the axis advance.

No but srsly the zook is not very good without buffs, let alone give em one.

I'm sorry but armor honestly does not in any way need it.  They are not about infantry as is.  Its ARMOR doctrine for a reason.  If you want to kill vehicles with armor go HVAP...

[Spartan_Marine88]

Sorry to whoever thinks the hotch stuka is crap, has no clue how to use it. Ask Heartmann or anyone else or even watch them. Its not hard to get 20-30 kills with one by using it near the front and using its main gun to support attacks.

*hint* it eats infantry with its main gun

[PonySlaystation]

The hotchkiss stuka isn't a bad unit, the dual role thing makes it really effective, it's just not an effective AT gun counter like other artillery pieces.

[I2ay]

Sorry to whoever thinks the hotch stuka is crap, has no clue how to use it. Ask Heartmann or anyone else or even watch them. Its not hard to get 20-30 kills with one by using it near the front and using its main gun to support attacks.

*hint* it eats infantry with its main gun

The hotch stuka is awesome. The stuka attached to it is shit. You can get direct hits and do next to no damage. Although at times you can get lucky...

[tank130]

<snip>....
The problem though is that if a blob of infantry is coming towards you and if it isn't Tommies, you can't even hold the line. You basically have to run away and hope you have Wher allies that can deal with infantry.....Plus, with the AT heavy metagame nowadays, you have to confront ATGs yourself sooner or later. .......<snip>

You are doing it wrong!!!!

Why are you trying to "Hold the line" with PE. They are supposed to be fast moving, mobile units. If you are sitting there trying to "Hold the line" you are going to get ass raped.

While the Allie is moving up, he is not dug in. So retreat and flank. Hit and run tactics that whittle them down. Oh.... wait, what was I thinking. This is EiRRNueville where everyone just smashes shit head on, then complains about bad game design....LOL


We over buffed Elite infantry to a point where the only decent counter was vehicles. So now we have a shit ton of Allied AT on the field to counter that shit, so then PE (the vehicle based faction) gets Butt fucked.

We just keep buffing shit and then buffing shit to counter the buffed shit, resulting in more buffs to shit.

[AmPM]

You are doing it wrong!!!!

Why are you trying to "Hold the line" with PE. They are supposed to be fast moving, mobile units. If you are sitting there trying to "Hold the line" you are going to get ass raped.

While the Allie is moving up, he is not dug in. So retreat and flank. Hit and run tactics that whittle them down. Oh.... wait, what was I thinking. This is EiRRNueville where everyone just smashes shit head on, then complains about bad game design....LOL


We over buffed Elite infantry to a point where the only decent counter was vehicles. So now we have a shit ton of Allied AT on the field to counter that shit, so then PE (the vehicle based faction) gets Butt fucked.

We just keep buffing shit and then buffing shit to counter the buffed shit, resulting in more buffs to shit.

Because in EIRR you win through holding territory, and being aggressive is detrimental to your call in timers...

[ick312]

Panzer Elite, the loved bastard child of EIRR. The faction which is the hardest to play no matter WHAT the metagame is. You look at panzer elite, you look at all of its units. They look great, they feel great, they however, arent. PE army requires masses of coordination and syncronation. For instance. Let us look at Panzer Elite's specialized infantry:

4 men with MP44s. Abilities: Sprint, Inc nade.
4 men with 2x Volksgrenadier like rifles, 1x G43, one Panzerschreck. Sprint, AT nade.

On paper they look good, but in reality they aren't. They both have normal infantry armor and thus die to anti personel weapons pretty quickly. Now do we need to buff them? Maybe? No. They are not meant to operate alone. You see people, what other factions don't have, is a one, mean, fast, deadly, machine, albeit fragile.

Gentlemen, The Infantry Halftrack. The bane of Panzer Elite's exsistance. Put these units inside and they are immune to any damage taken until their vehicle pops to pieces. Be in mind that this popping only requires two anti tank gun hits so they are fragile. This is how PE infantry operates even in EIRR. Halftracks. PE isn't for defence. It is for offence. PE can't hold territory, not what can be thrown against it and in EIRR holding territory is 80% of the things you are trying to do. Territory gives you population thus more units to the field and PE can not hold it. This is the bolt that PE hates. If it can't move fluidly, it will end in a grindfest with lesser quality units that require sync in order to be effective.

It was mentioned. The Anti tank spam. Mass ammounts of anti tank guns, machineguns and enemy armor. Synergy of these 3 unit types makes PE cry the tears. These mentioned units brings only 20 pop. Add in a extra squad to get up to 5. If  panzer elite gets support weapon creeped, there is a very little a panzer elite player can do.

MG in a building? Yes, good luck trying to tear it out from there. A tank, sitting next to a anti tank gun? Yeah, go for it marder, you will take return fire. You need at bad luck 5 shots, anti tank gun only needs 3, guess which one has better accuracy? IHT charge in? Maybe, but it will cost you. No matter which angle you come from.

Mortar halftrack, Stukas. Mortar halftrack is the most viable option on panzer elite. It is the annoying bugger, but also a expensive unit. If you catch it, its gone. One can suicide a unit at it to destroy it to reduce PE's effect enormously. I won't even get started on a stuka. 4 rockets on a cooldown? After each shot it is just a non-upgunned tank sitting there and eating 8 pop.

Support weapon creep is the death of Panzer Elite, regardless of flanking, regardless of doing what ever you want to do. The more players are in the game, the worse it just gets, has anyone ever seen 5 anti tank guns pointing at each angles of approach? Yeah, that happens in every 3v3 you'll end up to.

Despite the access to the best rifle in game, the G43, they come on a platform with no healing. It is a unit that can hold its ground, but don't expect it to hold it for long. Not against elite infantry. Airborne is a death sentence to panzer elite. Their hit and run ability is beyond control. The only way for PE is to win that situation, is if the player who plays AB makes a mistake.

Sniper, no matter how silly it seems, is a good addition to panzer elite army. It gives a new doorway for strategies to counter support weapons and heavy infantry.

Please, whoever wants to even tell that Panzer Elite has a panther thus they have a heavy tank! You most likely have never played panzer elite with a panther. That is a huge chunk of fuel out of PE's fuel reserve, the precious resource which every PE requires and always needs to build up their army. PE's Anti Personel, Anti tank, it all costs fuel. What comes only out as infantry is gunfodder, units that are there for line of sight and capping.

^+1 very good analysis