PE Heal Car discussion thread

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[CrazyWR]

Thoughts on proper placement to go here please.

[CrazyWR]

I'd say that heal car works well for SE, since they are a much more infantry based doctrine than TH.  Top T4 for SE is infantry buff, they have a t3 unlock of infantry, it generally fits well.  Never seen a need to change.  TH already have a small form of healing from their t2 that lets them heal slowly in buildings.  Also, TH doctrines tend to be vehicle based companies(except teller spam), and as such, healing is less of an issue.  Plus they already have a sort of 'healing' unit if you look at the bergetiger that way. 

[Hicks58]

It was determined that ALL doctrines would get access to infantry based healing. No if's, no but's.

Throwing the scout car was into TH was admittedly something of an interim measure, but it's there.

That building heal was not practical, requiring 3-4 minutes to fully heal a low health squad. Not only that, the decision over where the healing takes place is removed from the player. It's full of limitations, and if the heal were made potent enough for it to be worth it, watch what happens when TH players start garrisoning in combat.

If you or somebody else can come up with something more appropriate as a healing unit/mechanism for TH, then I welcome it. Should it make sense, I'll happily see that it gets thrown in on the next RGD patch.

[CrazyWR]

like I said, berge is the TH version of healing.  Not really sure why TH needs infantry healing tbh.  Maybe buff the t2 a little bit.  Not sure how hopping into buildings will save you vs anyone who knows how to fight units in buildings...same solutions apply...shouldn't be fighting units in buildings without nades or flames or snipers or vehicles regardless of whether they are healing

[tank130]

Firstly, Building heal is a flawed design in the Eirr environment. Especially since most of the community has a shit fit if you want to play a map with many buildings.
Take the most over played map in the history of the mod, Nueville: Within a few minutes of play you can level all the builds and fuck over that faction, or if that is not done, you essentially force them to heal on the front lines.

Secondly, I hate to contradict part of our team, but I do question the validity of healing for vehicle based factions. Should an armor company get all the buffs to vehicles plus the luxury of infantry healing? I am just posing the question for thought.

[Hicks58]

like I said, berge is the TH version of healing.  Not really sure why TH needs infantry healing tbh.

It was determined that ALL doctrines would get access to infantry based healing. No if's, no but's.

That means Armour and TH have been given access to "Standard" types of healing.

Also, Berge is not the TH version of healing at all. The Berge repairs vehicles, it does nothing for infantry.

Should an armor company get all the buffs to vehicles plus the luxury of infantry healing? I am just posing the question for thought.

Should an infantry company get all the buffs to infantry, plus the luxury of repairing vehicles? It is indeed a thought train which works both ways.

[CrazyWR]

I have no problem with specialization, but it seems that the dev team wants to head towards more well-rounded (and if I may say, less fun, more uniform, less distinctive) doctrines.  Personally I oppose this, but if you insist on healing for infantry for all doctrines, I guess you can put it in.  It really makes no sense with the doctrine, especially when you pair the unlock WITH the Hetzer, whereas in SE, it is solely the heal car by itself. 

Also, saying Berge isn't healing is rather stubborn in my opinion. It is certainly healing for vehicles, which is definitely a different form, but oh well.  I wouldn't mind seeing repair removed from infantry based factions at all. 

Each faction gets one infantry based choice(inf/rca/def/se), one rapid deployment choice(ab/luft/mandos/blitz), and one armor-based choice(armor/terror/re/th) and you can tailor the healing to each of those particular pools.  I'd say healing for that last group is less important than the other choices, but obviously things aren't mirror factions, so it will take some tailoring. 

[tank130]

Should an infantry company get all the buffs to infantry, plus the luxury of repairing vehicles? It is indeed a thought train which works both ways.

That's a fair argument. If all factions get vehicle repairs, then I guess its fair that all factions get infantry repairs.

If we are standardizing that, should we be standardizing all repairs?
What I mean is, if you destroy the Bergitiger, then you have destroyed that companies ability to repair.
If you destroy a CCS, you have destroyed that companies ability to heal.

Perhaps all forms of healing/repair should be unit based that can be destoyed?

[Hicks58]

Each faction gets one infantry based choice(inf/rca/def/se), one rapid deployment choice(ab/luft/mandos/blitz), and one armor-based choice(armor/terror/re/th)

RCA has a crap load of tank buffs as well as focusing on artillery, SE has a focus on artillery and mines.

Blitz is a very tank focused doctrine when going with HEAT rounds or top and bottom T3.

Terror is anything but armour centric with it's 4 man KCH, zeal, scoped MP44's, heavy support etc.

Very few doctrines get pigeon-holed, and for some arbitrary reason, they should miss out when they do.

I have no problem with specialization, but it seems that the dev team wants to head towards more well-rounded (and if I may say, less fun, more uniform, less distinctive) doctrines.

Pure speculation. The doctrines as they are now are a mess, and what we are doing short term is getting fixes and changes in to make things bearable whilst they are like this.

It really makes no sense with the doctrine, especially when you pair the unlock WITH the Hetzer, whereas in SE, it is solely the heal car by itself.  

Once again. Interim. If you want healing, grab the unlock but don't bother buying Hetzers, the reverse is true if you don't want healing but want Hetzers.

I'm all for specialised doctrines, but the current doctrine layout of EiRR is not balanced around that. I'm working with the current system as it stands. Changing or creating a new system is not something that can be done at the drop of a hat, so I'm seeing about getting this one in a more reasonable shape meanwhile.

Perhaps all forms of healing/repair should be unit based that can be destoyed?

The repair system for EiRR is kinda dated, and has a few holes in it (Dealing with vehicle crits for example). It can definitely do with moving along, and shifting it to external units is definitely something to be considered. However, it has to be done in such a way that it doesn't end up with infinite repairs and repair blobs of old. It's definitely do-able, but that's another massive change to the mod that requires some thought and planning.

[ick312]

3 ideas on healing of TH:
1. offmap based (like 4 uses)
Currently all healing possibilities cost resources and Pop therefore you receive infinite healing. So bound it to global uses. Here its free healing costing neither pop nor resources but no endless healing AND its not local!!!
(applies maybe only in friendly territory, last maybe 2 min???So a pretty long time)

2. passive doc specialization
Actually healing is for 2 factions bound to unlocks. Why not putting it in as a t2 specialization? Some ideas
-infantry heals itself when attacking/killing?
-Heal in green cover - after standing there for 1 min. So that it cant be used as a offensive combat buff
(i would like to see that for armor, the bot t2 could be replaced by that[at least from my pov its op])
-Heal in HTs
-Tank gains heal Aura after killing an enemy Sqaud/tank- lasts 1 min (would love to see that for TH)

3. passive equipment based
maybe as t1 equipment unlock?
-medpacks which cant heal themselfs but others? (might end up in micro hell, but maybe ok for vehicle based coys?)
-passive heal after purchase(slow but constant)
-depending on blob size (the more man together the higher the heal bonus IF ALL have this upgrade

[XIIcorps]

Ick you should probly stop with your ideas, they are borderline insane, not to mention neigh uncodable.

 Also disagree with every faction getting healing.
wasnt the argument always mirroring is bad, if were removing all of the weaknesses from coys ?.

What were going to end up with is 12 doctrines with moving shooting repairs tanks and moving infinite heals inf.

[terrapinsrock]

I'd agree with XII and Crazy on this. Giving faction healing may lead to the slippery slope towards mirror factions.

Although, I think BT made the right decision giving TH the heal car. It was the only real interim solution.  Though, I think BT should really look into PGrens themselves to really balance it out.

[nikomas]

Honestly, I ran pretty through tests on the new Pgren squad before we actually went live with it and I can tell you this.

Pgrens now beat

Tommies at ANY range, brens might win in close range, not sure.
Riflemen at ANY range unless the pgrenz charge the riflemens cover or the riflemen have bars

Hell, they'll even beat grenadiers at any range unless the grenadiers kill the two guys with g43's first and quckly. Basically, they're the best core inf in the game right now before spending munitions on upgrades. There ain't nothing to weak about them anymore, If they still feel weak that's simply because they get blown up by tanks a lot.


The reason all factions need accesible healing, PE specifically, is because these grenadiers have large health pools and without a way to properly heal them they're going to get atrittioned fast. Especially with how stingy PE has to be with MP when it running a lot of vehicles.

[XIIcorps]

Yeh pgrens a pretty tank now.

And not every doctrine needs accessible healing, becaus3 out attritioning is a viable tactic for armor heavy coys.

Now with the decreased pool costs, ample healing and op vanilla inf PE is kinda broken.

[nikomas]

I never said they were OP, I dont think they are, they got a price increase and their upgrades are less than stellar compared to most other basic inf out there among other things. Not to mention that doctrines that actually buff pgrens in a meaningfull way (copared to the other factions) are not that hot.

[XIIcorps]

RCA has a crap load of tank buffs as well as focusing artillery

Perhaps this is an issue?

[EIRRMod]

I'd agree with XII and Crazy on this. Giving faction healing may lead to the slippery slope towards mirror factions.

However, each factions way of healing will be different - and, more powerful (or useful, depends how you look at it) for the inf spec doctrine types.

[XIIcorps]

However, each factions way of healing will be different - and, more powerful (or useful, depends how you look at it) for the inf spec doctrine types.

so
Americans get triage with inf or dodge ambulance via reward.

Brits get ccs or ambulance via reward.

Wher get medkits or heal bunker

And PE get healz car faction wide ?
Which is the only mobile healing station outside of a reward unit, which can also fight back.

Hmmm

[nikomas]

Armor now has the ambulance, and luftwaffe still only has the air dropped medkits that you need BOTH luftwaffe and the medkits unlocked, that's 3 points even if all you wanted to heal was regular panzergrens. I have to have both those unlocked for my fortress europe coy just so I can heal Pzgrens.

Compared to a traige... Don't even wanna go there.


A triage/royal engineer CCS heals much faster than the scout car healer and can both take more punishment as well.

[taco355]

And PE get healz car faction wide ?
Which is the only mobile healing station outside of a reward unit, which can also fight back.

Isn't the name of the game mobility for PE?
The being able to shoot part bothers me too though.