Alright, this has to stop

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[CrazyWR]

First off, the range changes need reverted.  They are utter nonsense.  There is a reason we eliminated range buffs from doctrines and stopped adding them to veterancy and whatnot. 


Secondly, the firefly is now next to useless unless you are a jedi master, since the range advantage is either gone or from 10 to 5, and either way, the ridiculous reload time gives all axis tanks plenty of time to close and slaughter it.  The patch added speed buffs to axis heavies, which, while not bad on its own, has completely fucked the firefly.  The unit is too slow now to drive away from even a KT that is determined to chase it.  That's a little silly. 


Third, the panther accuracy vs infantry change was reverted once, what in the hell made you think giving it back was a good idea?  Yes I realize its only .55 instead of the previous .6, but still, it does a pretty good job vs infantry at the moment with the .55.  Panthers have always been anti-tank rather than anti-infantry tanks in COH, whereas the p4 and the tiger have always been more focused towards AI rather than AT.  With the new change to AI accuracy, panthers now handle both roles just fine.  P4 is now obsolete basically, and Tiger is only usable because of silly range buff and speed buff. 

Fourth, the vet1 requirements for ATGs need reverted, paks relied on that cloak to be able to get extra ambush damage to make up for being overall weaker than 57s in general.  57s relied on AP rounds to handle the ridiculous amount of heavy tanks in this mod(including the reward units) and with the massive buffs to tigers, king tigers and panthers, that number has somehow  gone up. 

Fifth, I'm a huge PE fan, but giving ISTs longer range than elite infantry is a little silly.  Airborne without fireup are basically fucked now anytime an IST comes around, and while I'm not sad to see airborne hit hard by this, the IST range should be moved to 35, not 40.

Sixth, I like the change to the range for the stug, but I'd say push it out farther to 50, and give the same range to M10s and M18s if you insist on giving 45 range to tigers and pershings, because right now m10s and m18s have 0 range advantage on axis tanks at all, and 0 armor, and frankly, speed is only useful if the enemy happens to have wandered off alone.

Seventh, amongst all these changes, I'd like to advocate for giving the Wirblewind(that useless unit nobody uses because it dies instantly) IST armor at the very least, since we're buffing every other unit, with a reversion to the health buff if necessary.


I'm sure there are other things I'm failing to address here, but these seem like the most important points.

[I2ay]

TL;DR,
Heavy tanks are good now. WAAAAAHHHHH

[Hicks58]

First off, the range changes need reverted.  They are utter nonsense.  There is a reason we eliminated range buffs from doctrines and stopped adding them to veterancy and whatnot. 

This happened due to not wanting to fuck with vCoH balance too much, to supposedly allow new people to slip into the mod easier.

What actually happens is new people just get trashed anyhow because skill difference pisses on people regardless of how well they might know the units in vCoH - They are applied totally differently and come at different times in EiRR.

Secondly, the firefly is now next to useless unless you are a jedi master, since the range advantage is either gone or from 10 to 5, and either way, the ridiculous reload time gives all axis tanks plenty of time to close and slaughter it.  The patch added speed buffs to axis heavies, which, while not bad on its own, has completely fucked the firefly.  The unit is too slow now to drive away from even a KT that is determined to chase it.  That's a little silly. 

Firefly works fine if you've got a deft hand, same as it always does. It's a massive risk-reward unit due to the 500 health and bad accel/decel. Range concerns are exaggerated, Firefly has 55 range, 57.5 with a CCT and 60 with a vet 2 CCT. Tiger has 45, KT has 45, Panther has 47.5, meaning you'll still range the fuck out of them. Spotting is key to the unit functioning correctly, and unit disablers such as mines are heavily encouraged although not essential to use.

The KT I'll agree with being silly, but not quite why you think. Vet was overlooked on it - It gets speed buffs at vet 2 and 3 which it doesn't need now it's not slow as shit anymore.

Third, the panther accuracy vs infantry change was reverted once, what in the hell made you think giving it back was a good idea?  Yes I realize its only .55 instead of the previous .6, but still, it does a pretty good job vs infantry at the moment with the .55.  Panthers have always been anti-tank rather than anti-infantry tanks in COH, whereas the p4 and the tiger have always been more focused towards AI rather than AT.  With the new change to AI accuracy, panthers now handle both roles just fine.  P4 is now obsolete basically, and Tiger is only usable because of silly range buff and speed buff.

Because it's a 450/490 FU brick of wasted pop after enemy tanks/vehicles are done with. Putting inf into cover will mean that the Panther will have to spend a small eternity sniping away one man at a time every 3rd-4th round. The PzIV and Tiger are both solid alternatives for AI and will actually deal with threats before the match is over. The only reason the FF didn't get an AI increase is because it utterly excels at AT (Given enough time it can paste literally any tank in the game), and it's the hallmark of CW to use heavily specialised units. The Cromwell kicks the ever living shit out of inf whilst being good vs LV's, the Stuart is a LV hunter, the FF is a tank hunter and the Staghound is a cheap alternative to the Cromwell.

Fourth, the vet1 requirements for ATGs need reverted, paks relied on that cloak to be able to get extra ambush damage to make up for being overall weaker than 57s in general.  57s relied on AP rounds to handle the ridiculous amount of heavy tanks in this mod(including the reward units) and with the massive buffs to tigers, king tigers and panthers, that number has somehow  gone up.

The idea that the Pak is weaker than the 57mm is a bad one. The 57mm has the edge in damage, whereas the Pak has the edge in ROF. This is because Axis tend to have few heavier targets with the Allies having more plentiful softer targets. I'd much rather have a Pak than a 57mm when the LV's/mediums start rolling out.

Reward units are being looked over again soon.

Fifth, I'm a huge PE fan, but giving ISTs longer range than elite infantry is a little silly.  Airborne without fireup are basically fucked now anytime an IST comes around, and while I'm not sad to see airborne hit hard by this, the IST range should be moved to 35, not 40.

The IST is a dedicated infantry hunter and infantry were laughing at it. Now there's a solid reason to stay the fuck away if you see one and bring something more suitable. If you're running your infantry around alone... Well, you get what you pay for when you don't use combined arms.

Sixth, I like the change to the range for the stug, but I'd say push it out farther to 50, and give the same range to M10s and M18s if you insist on giving 45 range to tigers and pershings, because right now m10s and m18s have 0 range advantage on axis tanks at all, and 0 armor, and frankly, speed is only useful if the enemy happens to have wandered off alone.

The StuG is a cheap tank hunter and infantry deterrent. M10's and M10's can still work pretty well as TD's, but you can't just roll them around alone or in pairs and go gank shit. You need to work them with other units.

Seventh, amongst all these changes, I'd like to advocate for giving the Wirblewind(that useless unit nobody uses because it dies instantly) IST armor at the very least, since we're buffing every other unit, with a reversion to the health buff if necessary.

The Wirble just needs to not be a T3 unlock tbh. It got the same +100 HP buff that the Ostwind got, and that has worked quite well for the Ostwind. People need to give it another chance.

[aeroblade56]

Because it's a 450/490 FU brick of wasted pop after enemy tanks/vehicles are done with.

M10's and M10's can still work pretty well as TD's, but you can't just roll them around alone or in pairs and go gank shit. You need to work them with other units.

pretty much this can be said about any td. i thought m10's had infantry snipe ability to  at some point.

[Uglysori]

The IST is a dedicated infantry hunter and infantry were laughing at it. Now there's a solid reason to stay the fuck away if you see one and bring something more suitable. If you're running your infantry around alone... Well, you get what you pay for when you don't use combined arms.

I not sure how I feel about the IST buff.  It's obviously a buff and I haven't frankly played enough with ISTs to get a good handle yet on its relative balance.  Reality of matter is AB now have a much harder time fighting ISTs without support but still have an ability to hit them outside of 40 range with low scatter ground attacking.  It's now just harder to kite ISTs all day and expect to take some dmg now if you aren't using attack ground or if you try to back out without fire-up.  Without fire-up the AB squads actually need to spread out in different directions instead of blobbing when retreating. 

Rangers are less effective against ISTs as before they could kite or dance with the superior range of their zooks.  The chance to pen wasn't great but a good player could usually avoid taking return dmg from the IST or make the IST overcommit into a trap.  Now rangers are forced to come from flanking angles and drop an alpha strike, something good players did anyway.   

One the biggest changes that some players fighting against an IST may forget is that with 40 range, M10s and M18s can actually take some dmg from the IST now.  M10 and M18 drivers tend to forget that the IST can pen rear armor shots and forget to keep their frontal armor facing using just their superior range, pen, firepower.  Instead they still have a tendency to needless circle jerk the IST where in the past the IST had trouble even getting a shot off because of 30 range.  Now with 40 range, it makes it alot easier for the IST driver to angle shots into the rear esp if you help him by circling for no reason.  Still going to lose the fight in the end, but its hilarious when American TDs attempt this nowadays with low health or when they are focused on attacking other tanks.

[AmPM]

It's more of an issue that the best unit to spot for the Firefly is the CCT, but the CCT has the same sight range as what it is spotting.

Recon squads...

[aeroblade56]

Recon squads...

you mean my 5 pop recon squad that needs another officer to become effective which can't button to prevent something from zerging my firefly?. yaeh cool story.

so 14 pop with recon tommy with officer thats 24 pop i think.

[XIIcorps]

you mean my 5 pop recon squad that needs another officer to become effective which can't button to prevent something from zerging my firefly?. yaeh cool story.

so mathematically its 12 pop for FF + 2 pop for CCT + 5 pop for recons + 4 pop for LT.

23 pop to use a unit effectively is just wowlence

[Hicks58]

CCT is more than capable of spotting for the FF, and does it even better with the tank commander.

Do people not know how to park their CCT behind a shot blocker whilst remaining in range of the FF it's supporting?

[nikomas]

SO Aero, XII... You guys normally don't field any other units when fielding a firefly? You never have infantry on field you can screen with? Someone mentioned combined arms and that kind of works from time to time. What do you think good KT players do, scout with the KT?

Besides, why DO you need the luitenant? Is this another case of people not reading patchlogs (of course they dont)? The recon seciton debuff was removed, personally I thought that might become rather iffy once people started spamming them, then again people do like to judge before they try.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr4ryqTaN9k <---- Why recon sections are fun, that was before the buff

[aeroblade56]

SO Aero, XII... You guys normally don't field any other units when fielding a firefly? You never have infantry on field you can screen with? Someone mentioned combined arms and that kind of works from time to time. What do you think good KT players do, scout with the KT?

Besides, why DO you need the luitenant? Is this another case of people not reading patchlogs (of course they dont)? The recon seciton debuff was removed, personally I thought that might become rather iffy once people started spamming them, then again people do like to judge before they try.

oh i field infantry. it usually consist 1 captain prob 2 inf squads and a atg.

the problem is i need 2 brens with the recent surplus of KT kch users  i cant use recon spam effectively because 70% i will still get lul charged and thrown of the map.

even so again you wont kill 2x mp44 storms with 2 recons without a lt. which everyone seems to be running.

And yes i have tried recon spam since the patch you frog.

[Heartmann]

Check the last replay I posted to see how to use FFs, hicks locked us down pretty hard.

[ick312]

stug is too strong for its price. i think 40 range for the cheapst td is fine.

Panther is fine now. Wasnt before! you guys just got too much used to its low performance and btw: its stats clearly state its not a td, compared to other tds: who are either far cheaper, faster, could cloak, had better armor. Just think on upgunned sherman not being able to fight infantry and panther is far more costy...

Stormies - elite armor doesnt need a comment just like ranger elite armor.

tiger  +  persh: no doubt  in a frontal engagement is the tiger superior, while the pershing is more maneuverable. Anyway pershing never had an issue on the battlefield and if it had one then it was a cloaked atg.
Tigers only enemies were RRs, kiting Firefles and VERY well microed hellkitties. However RRs got nerfed since there is a reason to maintain vet on it. kiting Fireflies should be superior to Tigers and hell kitties i have seen it only  a few times that a hellkitty damaged a tiger seriously.

So what i want to say: neither the persh nor the tiger need the latest buffs.
Tiger might need a bit more accuracy,since he has to fight allied inf on long range, but non needs this range buff and 85% accuracy vs infantry i really too much.

[shockcoil]

I have to agree with Crazy, I don't think there has ever been a point in EIR where heavy tanks were weak, the buff was not needed. If anything I think medium tanks get shafted pretty hard without doctrines. Same with the IST, that thing already chewed up AB and rangers like nobodies' business, it doesn't need the ability to kite them as well.

Can't comment on the firefly I hated it in the first place.

Vet requirements on ATGs should also be looked at. Honestly allied armour already dealt with paks comfortably enough, without cloak they shit all over them. Pershings can drive right up to paks and kill them and flanking with light vehicles is way too easy now that you can see them. I mean there is merit to the argument to be made that axis tanks in general beat allied tanks head on so paks are secondary but that doesn't stop LVs and infantry running rampant over them. I don't want to get into any hypothetical situations, I just think without their positional advantage paks are too easy to take out in general. The 57 is also surprisingly helpless against heavy tanks without AP rounds although this is less of an issue because 57s are pretty spammable and allies have better handheld AT options.

Stug is a funny unit, I always felt 1 Stug is useless but it is very strong when spammed so I'm not sure how you would go about balancing that. I'll reserve judgement on it.

Oh and panther is a piece of shit, good buff.

[aeroblade56]

the IST buff is really hard to deal with. as a someone who plays CW regularly unless your fielding  a firefly and cct. you won't actually stand a chance against these things, with the new crew shock now actually letting units pass through your area and then just leaving instantly  leaving your atg completely fucked.

i would suggest piats but again the IST will just rip through them at rifles don't pen and atg is screwed. only thing is ff or cromwell which probably will bounce off the ist a few times.

[Uglysori]

If anything I think medium tanks get shafted pretty hard without doctrines. Same with the IST, that thing already chewed up AB and rangers like nobodies' business, it doesn't need the ability to kite them as well.

I don't think this is true.  With 30 range and no doctrines, the IST was not good at fighting AB and Rangers that had RRs or Zooks.  Moreso the former than the latter.   The AB could ping away at max range with little to no consequence.  Zooks could do some major dmg with 90 dmg per pen so it was worth gambling with long range shots since you had 33% frontal pen and over 100% pen on rear shots with crap long range accuracy since the IST had no hope to return fire.  Throw in green cover and it was even more ptless for the IST to try to dig out either.  The short range, rate of fire, long range accuracy modifiers at 30 range made it a worthless proposition unless you had doctrine help from Moving Lockdown, Inc shells or Zimmermit, Infrarot.            

I have not been able to make a judgement call on whether or not the buff should have been 35 rather than 40 range but 30 range with the current no doctrines and the current repair mechanics made it a bad investment.  I can tell you that over 40 range for the IST and M8 Scott is a very bad idea, though.

[tank130]

We need to leave doctrines out of this please. It is doubtful they will come back the same as they were.

[shockcoil]

Honestly I think RRs without doctrine buffs are worthless against anything heavier than a marder, especially if said tank has skirts while zooks require lucky pens. Meanwhile the IST is faster and will wipe out a squad in 2-3 hits, in a 1on1 engagement I think you'd be lucky to get off 2 volleys with your RRs.  This is slightly harder without lockdown but hey they don't have fireup either. The thing with the old IST I think is that you had to play very aggressively with it and it needed to be supported whereas with 40 range it's just a ridiculously good P4. At 40 range you can reliably avoid armour while still being an inf killing machine. Frankly I just think it's too easy to use considering how powerful it is.

[NightRain]

...and allies have better handheld AT options.

Honestly I think RRs without doctrine buffs are worthless against anything heavier than a marder, especially if said tank has skirts while zooks require lucky pens.

I find controversy in this david. Make up your mind what to praise!

I do honestly think that P4 ISTs are now the only P4 that can be considered a good among Axis P4 list. Watch out that PE nowadays boys, their infantry are high health volksgrenadiers and their AT is paper but damn they got a good anti-infantry tank which they needed to properly CC big elite inf blobs.

[Uglysori]

the IST buff is really hard to deal with. as a someone who plays CW regularly unless your fielding  a firefly and cct. you won't actually stand a chance against these things, with the new crew shock now actually letting units pass through your area and then just leaving instantly  leaving your atg completely fucked.

i would suggest piats but again the IST will just rip through them at rifles don't pen and atg is screwed. only thing is ff or cromwell which probably will bounce off the ist a few times.

That the only thing that will deter ISTs with 40 range is a Firefly and CCT (much less a Firefly alone) is a laughable statement.  ATG alone can do good dmg to an IST unless it's out of position.  Any of these the following vehicles should be enough to deter an IST from circle jerking an ATG - Firefly, Cromwell, Stuart (Pens a IST better than the IST pens a Stuart) since they can all damage the IST beyond simply just blocking for the ATG.  What screws over AT rifles vs P4 skirts isn't even really the pen, its the low dmg (30ish).  An IST can just back out and take another 150 dmg ATG round to the face or drive through and ignore the 30 dmg rear pens... yet this is the same for any other tank that decides to drive through an AT rifle squad to flank an ATG.  Please continue to not use Piats in clowncars or green cover.  Those things were so annoying to dig out of green cover and do 102 dmg a pop when then land and tend to land as rear pens.      

On David's pt -

There seem to be plenty of vet 1 RRs rolling around.  Volley and run still seems to be worthwhile and working since you shouldn't have an issues with pen against P4 skirted armor.

Range might be better suited at 35 rather than 40 but I have to test out the 40 range IST a bit more.  Extremely difficult to make it cost effective with 30 range an no docs.