[PE] FJs

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[tank130]

When the balance team ran a balance test of all units with no doctrines activated for a number of weeks , why did this problem with FJ's not come up?

I ask because we should consider whether the problem is the base unit, or the docs it receives: or the docs the other units receive.

[Katusha]

I honestly think 5 man squads will be a little too OP no matter what you do (think riflenades). What I think should come back is a doc that gives higher accuracy maybe 10% just for being the badass fsj that they are. Then 10% more for being in light cover, and 20 more for being in green. Or a riflenade buff that comes closer to how good the brit riflenades are (+20% damage and AOE.. and ability to have a lt for accuracy bonuses.. and 5 man squads).

As much as I would like to see 5 man fsj, I have a gut feeling it would be too strong.

EDIT: take it back, there already some fair riflenade buffs in luft: T3: +20% dmg, T4: +25% acc +10% dmg in green cover

[TheWindCriesMary]

What they need Katusha is survivability more than anything else. Right now they just attrition too quickly for a doctrinal unlock unit that is supposed to be (typically) a core component of a Luft army.

They should be competitive with other doctrinal infantry.

[Smokaz]

If you are playing with the cloak, you don't get comparable buffs on them to other doctrines.

The cloak in cover ambush was also super nerfed afaik -> sadface

If you play with the mid t4 though, they should be good, I've just NEVER actually gotten it to be as good as it's suggested. It's hella fun on g43s and panzergrens, but nilla fsj or fg42 schirms just dont seem to do much more even with this.

----

SUGGS:

I'd like to see cover related received accuracy + received damage bonuses T4, and just remove the crawling cloak, which is just gay imo and doesn't fit with the game.

I'd also like to see their ambush be on a slightly longer cooldown toggle timer like the piat ambush but give them awesome killing power at short range.

WHY does it have to be like this? Because if their ambush doesnt force you to retreat or kills you fast, you get a grenade in return. Whats the fucking point of having a static ambush, if the unit being ambushed hardly is limited from getting a full retaliation in ?

[Shabtajus]

There are a few things here that are inaccurate with the current metagrame.

1) They are underperforming against allied infantry in the metagame. I recommend playing with them for a few games at the least against the mass cap and/or mass rangers/airborne strategy many allied players are effectively employing at the moment. Unless they get FG42's you will see players get torn to pieces by even regular rifles (smoke + nade combo) or straight up just beaten in close/mid range by rangers with thompsons or rifles/ab rifles with bars and an officer.  If not 1:1 due to good micro on the FJ player's side, with sheer numbers.


2) The small squad size is the biggest problem beyond how they stack up individually to an allied infantry. means a single nade, mortar round (i've seen mortar rounds kill 2-4 men from a single squad reliably), or sniper can immediately cripple a FJ squad beyond functional use. This is compounded when they gain vet as many players try to keep vetted squads alive and retreat at 1-2 men.

2.5/3) Increasing their cost would not mean getting less of them. It would mean getting fewer squads of them in your entire company but being able to have more of them on the field (the place that actually matters) at any given time and making the squads you do have on the field more surviveable. They would also hold their usefulness longer as a bigger squad size has other benefits such as mitigating the damage of a sniper shot (now doesn't gimp a squad to 75/50/25/0 effectiveness but rather 80/60/40/20/0.

So for example if FJs were 300 and 5 pop you'd be able to have 25 of them on the field  at 25 pop versus 20 in the current metagame.

4) No, I am having a chat with this forum as a guy who actually uses FJs. Listen to the experience.

spammed fjs without upgrades they r fine if they were regular units. BUT its t1 unlock and also u need t3 to get nades. Kinda stupid compared to mandos or AB, AB rfls where ya get nades by default tbh. I say we ban TheWindCriesForStomps and make nades being upgrade available by default?

also i want to remind that top t4 crete vets is not working cuz fjs infantry still cant para dropp  

[PonySlaystation]

When the balance team ran a balance test of all units with no doctrines activated for a number of weeks , why did this problem with FJ's not come up?

I ask because we should consider whether the problem is the base unit, or the docs it receives: or the docs the other units receive.

People tend to buy FJs with FG42 and then to save munitions buy some Luftwaffe infantry with G43, there is never any reason to use unupgraded FJs.

One can also question how viable it is to buy a T3 unlock just for FJs to be able to purchase a single panzerschreck or a stick grenade for 25 munitions and why grenades and riflegrenades aren't available for luftwaffe infantry. Those upgrades are all available in other doctrines for a smaller investment. Defensive and Blitzkrieg doctrine can both purchase double panzerschrecks as a T2 unlock. Airborne, Airborne riflemen, Commandos and Rangers all have anti-infantry grenades without purchasing an unlock for them.

If we want to move away from vCOH balance then the first step is to remove these limitations.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Another reason it didn't come up is because people have to actually use the unit and take the time to raise the issue. There are dozens of things that could have come up during that "test" that didn't.

[nikomas]

Also for the record, going from Soldier > Airborne armor in that T3 isn't exactly a huge buff... Thinking about it a nilla fall is more fragile than a nilla airborne soldier man for man, lol.

[Smokaz]

Also for the record, going from Soldier > Airborne armor in that T3 isn't exactly a huge buff... Thinking about it a nilla fall is more fragile than a nilla airborne soldier man for man, lol.

This doctrine decision is also one of the few true doc choices with tradeoffs, since for instance, you'll be weaker vs commandos (lol) for instance but stronger vs snipers when ur moving

Why not let heartman redesign some of the doctrine, as adviser to nikomas and myst?

[nikomas]

It took me and hicks several months to convince heartmann double tap snipers was bullshit, you sure you want that? 

(I'm just having fun)

[skaffa]

Yes to buffing FSJ survivability. Id like to use these elite troops but in EIR they're just so WEAK.

[Smokaz]

Improve their vanilla ambush and make top t4 give ridicolous defensive bonuses in cover then.

[ick312]

dont buff survivebility!

It will only end in blob fights!

Make their ambush stronger, OR their weapon stats

[nikomas]

Could try restoring their ambush first? Why was that even removed, does anyone know why?

EiRR FJ's are quite literally worse than their Vcoh counterparts because of that, not many units we can say that about.

[skaffa]

Better ambush? Sit in cover and wait? Laaaaaame, boring imo. Fack that I still wont use em. Problem for me with FSJ is you cant attack well with them. Expensive FG42 and fragile platform means its risky and dangerous to go out there. You can alrdy play defensively like that with them, thats what Heartmann does.

[TheWindCriesMary]

It also doesn't fit the role FJ's are supposed to fill. They're supposed to be behind the lines, hitting weak points and throwing the enemy off balance. Crippling reinforcements and hitting defensive positions via surprise.

They are not supposed to be campy defensive alpha strikers who sit behind cover and wait for the enemy to attack. There is no point having a parachuting elite infantry unit to serve that role.

Give them the survivability to take the fight to the enemy and inflict sharp albeit precise blows behind lines and on flanks without getting torn to pieces before they can come close to earning cost.

[nikomas]

You guys clearly dont remember what kind of cloak they had...

They cloaked in combat going by the stats I saw last, you can literally run them into heavy cover under fire and they'll proceed to cloak between their own rifle shots if they're at mid/long range. That's what made them so strong, they got a continual ambush bonus as long as they remained in cover and didnt fight for to long and could be used offensivly in short bursts.

[Smokaz]

Better ambush? Sit in cover and wait? Laaaaaame, boring imo. Fack that I still wont use em. Problem for me with FSJ is you cant attack well with them. Expensive FG42 and fragile platform means its risky and dangerous to go out there. You can alrdy play defensively like that with them, thats what Heartmann does.

We don't need more blob attack inf with assault weapons.

It also doesn't fit the role FJ's are supposed to fill. They're supposed to be behind the lines, hitting weak points and throwing the enemy off balance. Crippling reinforcements and hitting defensive positions via surprise.

They are not supposed to be campy defensive alpha strikers who sit behind cover and wait for the enemy to attack. There is no point having a parachuting elite infantry unit to serve that role.

Give them the survivability to take the fight to the enemy and inflict sharp albeit precise blows behind lines and on flanks without getting torn to pieces before they can come close to earning cost.

THIS IS EXACTLY, , what their role should be. You are talking about commandos, not FSJ.

[chefarzt]

Rofl finally the penny drops.
U force the enemy to atack you with mortar halftracks and creep up with marders and 50 mils.

[nikomas]

I honestly think they should just get their old cloak back tbh... Call it combat cloak, that's what it was.