[US] M10 compared against Stug

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[TheWindCriesMary]

MG+Crush VS crush, Statistically you'll get far more AI kills with a StuG.

Statistics don't tell the full story here. A skilled user with 3 m10s is going to be crushing full squads, especially way out on the flanks, with ease. A skilled user is going to be roaming the backfield destroying artillery and repairing panthers. Most importantly, with M10s a skilled user can basically pick his engagements and gtfo before trouble shows up. A stug has a much more impaired abillity to do any of those things. They are, frankly speaking, a support assault gun for your front line versus a roaming terror.

You can take 3 stugs and someone of equal abillity can take 3 m10s and I'd be willing to bet the m10 guy is going to be getting more kills out of his 3 m10s every time. Their mobility is fantastic -- they're just a wonderful tank.

Stugs are fine, but they're not in the same league.

[XIIcorps]

Stugs are fine, but they're not in the same league.

Exactly were hypotheticaly comparing a Dedicated Tank Destroyer to an Assault gun.

Stug can do a bit of everything and with HEAT a bit more.

M10 is soley for AT duties and should your enemy lack any HHAT, ATG's you can grind inf.

Then further theory craft comes into play, like garrisoning inf etc.

Its still Apples and oranges, Shit id like to see the Stug come down in pop to 7

[TheWindCriesMary]

M10 is soley for AT duties and should your enemy lack any HHAT, ATG's you can grind inf.

If you're just using your m10 for AT duties it isn't being used right.

Check out some replays of Skaffa using his m10s. THAT's how you're going to get the most out of them.

Only for AT duties if they're being used wrong.

[XIIcorps]

If you're just using your m10 for AT duties it isn't being used right.

Check out some replays of Skaffa using his m10s. THAT's how you're going to get the most out of them.

Only for AT duties if they're being used wrong.

So we should remove INF crush from them just as we did the Roo ?

[TheWindCriesMary]

Why?

[GORKHALI]

So we should remove INF crush from them just as we did the Roo ?

not only m10 but sherman also has a very good inf crush but try to crush inf with panther or any other german tanks it will be pain in the ass... m10 as a tank destroyer shouldn't be able to crush inf like that or give same crush to all heavy and medium tanks to both sides,, example .. last time i had 2 grens with shreks got crushed by m10 only able to hit once , as the m10 get closer and start crushing grens don't even fire their shreks.

[NightRain]

If you are eager to remove crush from M10 just remove it from stug as well.

[XIIcorps]

If you are eager to remove crush from M10 just remove it from stug as well.

logic behind this ?
As far as ive seen, M10 is over performing per cost, StuG is underperforming per cost.

Mg supression + crush is the stugs meal ticket, M10's is effectivley nutralising enemy armor below a Panther, throw in another M10 and you can heavily damage anything.

StuGs tho are Jacks of all trades and do not excell at any.

[NightRain]

Basically StuG is superior tank to M10 for 3 reasons. Armor, Suppression and pop cap.

StuG's general weakness is not its armor, gun, or anything. It is a simple reason. It has only 400 health. That is why people dislike StuG (aside of it has no turret) However it is 8 pop to field and it performs decently in its role as a 45 range assault gun. The MG is superior mg compared to all the mgs tanks get in axis forces non-doctrine wise. It suppresses pretty quickly and then stug can crush them. If you run to a sticky squad with a stug- you don't have to give a fuck. Smash the sticky squad, take it and use that 30 mun repair. You eradicated 60 munitions in return. If the squad had even more upgrades even better then.

M10s only effectiveness comes from crushing while I agree it is highly annoying it happens, it could be worse. The Old M10s had better infantry accuracy with their main guns making them snipe them efficiently. StuG however can still hit infantry more reliable than m10 but still has potentiality to crush infantry and do it better due to suppression which slows infantry down and allows easier crush. Also the infamous stug slide is devestating if it happens. Really StuG is a great machine, not a pack hunter like M10, but a different specialization.

[PonySlaystation]

What happens when you try to suppress or crush infantry with the StuG is that it will get hit in the rear and die quickly. The StuG is a fragile long range assault gun with no rotatable turret, so it can't crush infantry and at the same time engage tanks like the M10, because if you do that, you show your rear to everyone, it also can't be used to flank AT guns and then crush infantry like the M10 can for the same reason.

If I see the enemy has called on 3 stugs it's no big deal. They will mostly be engaging me from the front, will be doing minimal damage to anything before it either moves back or is destroyed/damaged by my team's AT assets.

3 m10s on the other hand is a totally different story. Suddenly, nothing is safe. Not my flanks, not my back country, and especially not any repairing vehicles (including super expensive repairing tigers/jps/etc.).

The StuG is one of the most underwhelming units in the game. They are easy to counter, fragile, limited turret, slow rotation. Every time the enemy team brings one on, I can tell that it's going to be an easy game.

The difference here is that an M10 or a Marder are going to be much more effective against tanks. With some support they can engage enemy tanks successfully, the StuG cannot. It doesn't have the range, the mobility, the turret rotation or health to be effective against tanks or infantry for that matter.

I think that they should be given a smaller boost in hitpoints and be given cloak with ambush bonus. The ambush deal fits the StuG and Hetzer much better than the M18 Hellcat.

[aeroblade56]

yeah the m10 on the armor is so shit it can show its ass all day and not give a fuck because it doesnt matter.

[chefarzt]

Stugs can easily shred m10s.

[NightRain]

StuGs can shred M10s, but M10s have easier time shredding StuGs due to the fact it reloads faster. 4.2 vs 7 seconds. This is quite substancial difference in their DPS. Their damage is similar vs one another but 4.2 vs 7 seconds. That is why M10s and such are great tank hunters. very few vehicles have that fast reload and rate of fire. They have nearly twice as fast reload compared to most tanks, combine this with speed and you get a deadly hunter.

[XIIcorps]

StuGs can shred M10s, but M10s have easier time shredding StuGs due to the fact it reloads faster. 4.2 vs 7 seconds. This is quite substancial difference in their DPS. Their damage is similar vs one another but 4.2 vs 7 seconds. That is why M10s and such are great tank hunters. very few vehicles have that fast reload and rate of fire. They have nearly twice as fast reload compared to most tanks, combine this with speed and you get a deadly hunter.

should we reduce the m10s rotation slightly then by 0.25 or something to make it slightly less capable of directly circle jerking enemy armor.

[NightRain]

should we reduce the m10s rotation slightly then by 0.25 or something to make it slightly less capable of directly circle jerking enemy armor.

I don't think it'd make much of a difference since M10 is pretty much fine as it is. It has 400 health and basically vet 3 HEAT tiger, Panther, Marder, and so on 2 shoots it.

[XIIcorps]

I don't think it'd make much of a difference since M10 is pretty much fine as it is. It has 400 health and basically vet 3 HEAT tiger, Panther, Marder, and so on 2 shoots it.

I thought vet was irrelevant when it came to balance.
a Vet 5 SP is near impossible to kill conventionally
Vet 5 Tommy squads are near impervious to small arms.

you see where im going with this.
balance is about nilla vs nilla units.
vet is a niche buff for said unit like the KT speed buffs.

[aeroblade56]

2 shots no matter, what put it out of action.

[NightRain]

Well in that regard PAK40 and 88 will 2 shoot it. So do Doctrine buffed tank destroyers and heavy tanks.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Yeah it isn't supposed to be getting hit by heavy AT. It's meant to use its speed, terrific range/sight, fast turrent rotation and reload to take opportunistic shots from the flanks as a hunter. Not go lol charging in as a brawler soaking up damage.

Fast, extremely agile and hits like a freight train -- the intended strengths of the m10.

Paper thin armour and low hp - the intended weaknesses of the m10.

Right now the unit fulfills its intended role to spec.

[tank130]

I agree with Wind; M10 is priced perfectly for it's intended role and does it's intended role very well.