Re-Balance Offmaps, Smoke and misc abilities

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[GelezinisVilkas]

Brit blobs are not OP. The things that need balancing however, are the elements that remove counters to brit blobs.

RCA being the chief culprit here having 2x Air burst and 2x Earth Shaker. Thse two offmaps have the biggest AOE of all offmaps. Any good coordinated attacks with infantry are immediately nullified by off maps. Purchase-able offmaps are not that big a deal as they require a trade-off of munitions to obtain. Offmaps that take a long time to land like V1, Brit Bomber aren't nearly as big an issue but they take out the viability of stationary on map artillery and triage.

The next point is smoke. Smoke is very powerful option that totally disables HMG42. The use of it in huge amounts in certain strategies (e.g. Smoke RRs, Smoke TR Zooks) totally negate the HMG42 and even vehicles at time as a viable counter. Since you can't retreat troops in this mod, getting rushed by troops in smoke is effectively a death sentence. This also applies to abilities like Heroic Charge. In vcoh you get charged? No problem, just retreat.

I don't think they should be removed but they can use some tweaking.

In summary, look at abilities that offers a flat advantage at no cost (e.g. offmaps) and review the impact of the removal of the retreat option on all units and abilities.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I agree with most of your points Gelez.

Off maps serve little or no function in the game other than to be silly. Removing all offmaps, or most of them, would be a good step toward better gameplay overall.

Also, Blitzkrieg is king of the ridiculous unlock abilities (like Heroic charge, which isn't an unlock but is to a lesser extent also silly).

But yeah no earthshaker, no howitzer barrage, no firestorm, no v1 and no rocket barrage would be a great improvement to overall tactics.

Smoke I don't mind so much as it's a good use of combined tactics and arms to overcome obstacles. With that being said, smoke grenades for US infantry is silly.

[NightRain]

Once you remove offmaps you'll get to fight walls of support weapons again since offmaps are best at destroying support weapon walls and to prevent them from properly forming up again. It wont encourage faster gameplay, it will reduce faster gameplay into slow support weapon creep.

Once again. British officer auras will be changed once Myst gets internet connection and steady time at his new job.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Once you remove offmaps you'll get to fight walls of support weapons again since offmaps are best at destroying support weapon walls and to prevent them from properly forming up again. It wont encourage faster gameplay, it will reduce faster gameplay into slow support weapon creep.

No. Offmaps are not what keeps support weapon walls from slowing down gameplay.

There are literally dozens of in-game counters to this that exist and are fully functional. Artillery, indirect, smoke, flanking, snipers, etc.

Offmaps are lazy, require little or no planning, skill or abillity and are completely free in terms of resource costs.

Arguing that getting rid of offmaps will stagnate gameplay is just wrong.

Once again. British officer auras will be changed once Myst gets internet connection and steady time at his new job.

Not a single person has mentioned british officer auras in this thread.

[GrayWolf]

I just said that, cause this is another thread with the same question/answer. Would you mind sticking to one thread? There's a lot of off-map balance threads. There is solution in EiR2. Thread closed. If it comes to blobs. Officers will be nerfed. How to counter smoke? Use freaking MP40s, flammenwerfers, arty, gas, whatever. There was also a question like that.
Why you make all the threads AGAIN and AGAIN?

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?action=search

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=14041.0

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=27507.60

"You are very correct IMO.

This is one of the first things we addressed when setting up the design of EiR2. Every doctrine ability, both top tier & bottom tier (although we are getting rid of that) will have a cost.
We are also getting rid of all the useless little abilities and making more powerful ones. By adding a cost, we can create really good abilities but have the ability to balance them.

Of course, this all means nothing until we can mod CoH2. I would love to just completely overhaul EiR:R, but that's not gonna happen....lol" - Tank130

[NightRain]

Not a single person has mentioned british officer auras in this thread.

Brit blob usually means there is an officer around. Watch a brit blob run without officers and suddenly they are no longer that much of a problem. Just a annoying thing but nothing more than a rifleman blob.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Brit officers aren't the problem. They're meant to be strong to offset having terrible tanks, terrible support weapons and terrible infantry.

As for brit blobs, I'd like to see Heroic Charge toned down to be just a suppression and slight survivability buff instead of an offensive buff as well. But that's all that's needed. Their extremely easy to counter and rarely perform well in high level games. Good players just know too well how to counter them without much effort. I've never played a game, except maybe one or two vs Cherirance 1-2 years ago, where a brit blob was a problem. Guys like Skaffa and Korps make a mockery out of them without even breaking a sweat as well.

[XIIcorps]

Brit officers aren't the problem. They're meant to be strong to offset having terrible tanks, terrible support weapons and terrible infantry.

As for brit blobs, I'd like to see Heroic Charge toned down to be just a suppression and slight survivability buff instead of an offensive buff as well. But that's all that's needed. Their extremely easy to counter and rarely perform well in high level games. Good players just know too well how to counter them without much effort. I've never played a game, except maybe one or two vs Cherirance 1-2 years ago, where a brit blob was a problem. Guys like Skaffa and Korps make a mockery out of them without even breaking a sweat as well.

So you'd like to see Heroic charge renamed to fireup ?

After the last few games ive had the misfourtune of playing vs you and aeros british blob brigade, i would
1) like you to PM me this supposed hard counter to the blobbery.

2) More offmaps to combat the blobbery

3) Blobbery

[NightRain]

Brit officers aren't the problem. They're meant to be strong to offset having terrible tanks, terrible support weapons and terrible infantry.

On a side note British infantry is the most durable and this affects their support weapons as well. Vickers 303 is better than the american 30 cal for it comes with far more durable crew. It is a better MG overall of the two. The mortar while having a short range deals the highest damage of them all and has the highest rate of fire. Everything british wield is good, their rifles aren't the greatest but they are neither the worst. Their tanks are role based unlike WM and American ones which means neither are good at everything but good at their intended roles. All in all moot point. The british officer structure is changed due to their powerful constant buffs they provide.

Smoke is known to be powerful which is why smoke nades were nerfed to make them less effective. Whilst british smoke deployment aren't the greatest (The greatest form is CCT smoke barrage) they still have non-doctrine ways to do it. Mortar and rifle grenades for instance.

RCA's arty spam is something which is annoying while the two mentioned barrages are random at best. Earthshaker is good for a larger area clearing, I've found it to be a massive diceroll as it comes on so late. the airburst is very fun to use against infantry blobs or a support weapon blob to force them to move or suffer damage with potential crew wipe. It is hard to say if the two offmaps are OP or not since the two have been nerfed in the past (At least earthshaker). I'd say the offmaps are balanced in a way since they aren't instant and anyone has enough time to pull away before the first shell lands and pray for lady luck that it doesn't drift on your retreating units.

[GrayWolf]

Earthshaker is good yellow cover maker. FJs love this <3

[nikomas]

Being rather well versed in the RCA blob the offmaps are NOT the problem, never have been. I didn't even use both of them.

See, better to get scoped rifles, Lit up and creeping barrage.

[GrayWolf]

See, better to get scoped rifles, Lit up and creeping barrage.

+1

[TheWindCriesMary]

On a side note British infantry is the most durable and this affects their support weapons as well. Vickers 303 is better than the american 30 cal for it comes with far more durable crew. It is a better MG overall of the two. The mortar while having a short range deals the highest damage of them all and has the highest rate of fire. Everything british wield is good, their rifles aren't the greatest but they are neither the worst. Their tanks are role based unlike WM and American ones which means neither are good at everything but good at their intended roles. All in all moot point. The british officer structure is changed due to their powerful constant buffs they provide.

The british mortar deals 22 damage to the WM mortar's 36. It has a good ROF, but terrible, terrible damage and range that is atrocious. But I want to focus on your damage remark (EDIT: Hicks mentioned in a later post the brit mortar has 2x modifier, I was wrong in saying it is not the highest damage vs inf/SW).

Also, little of what you have written reflects the actual reality of the current metagame. It's completely in its own world. It's the danger of isolating individual stats in order to make a macro assessment of a unit.

You're particularly wrong about the British support weapons and infantry. Any current active player in the mod can tell you that british infantry without their officer buffs are a bad joke - sluggish, terrible DPS and with relatively poor upgrade options. The british mortar barely shows up in any games these days (in fact, I play 3-5 games a day and can't tell you the last time I saw one... but it was easily over 2 weeks ago) nor is it common to see a british MG. They just don't perform compared to their axis or american counterparts. This isn't about isolating its damage or any other stat, this is the cold hard truth of the metagame. It can have the best damage (debatable because the only damage that matters is the damage you can do in a game due to actually being able to hit something, not what it is on paper), but if it's consistently unable to fulfill its intended role in games people won't use it. That's what has happened.

As for tanks, just no and no. The Firefly is the only tank the Brits have that is specialized and performs its specialized role fairly well. Never mind it takes ten times more careful micro to use well than the tanks its supposed to counter, or that all it has going for it is range (as its inferior in penetration and damage, speed and health, armour and AI capability) it's absolutely humbled by tanks with a close to or comparable cost (around 330 fuel). The cromwell in the current metagame, stripped of it has been of flank speed, is another bad joke.

It's only with veterancy and officer upgrades that british infantry become competitive. This is crucial due to the fact that everything else in the british arsenal is mediocre at best, and typically the worst of any doctrine. They are meant to require stacking buffs of command officers.

Nerfing the officers, like many balance decisions that have been made recklessly or without fully understanding the impact or reasoning behind them, is a mistake. It will set up a chain reaction of effects that will take far more balancing work (something we know is going to be very difficult given the current activity of the balance lead) trying to adjust all the other components that stripping brits of their one effective platform is going to have. The infantry will need to be fixed, and then the tanks and the support weapons to make the army viable again. It would require shifting the entire foundation of the brits structure to some other mechanic.

It's already the least played, least successful and least well represented army in the mod. We need to think hard and long about the decisions being made when it comes to an army that fits that description. I'm just not confident there is enough requisite experience with playing the army effectively, beyond Bolt, myself or Nikomas, to make a metagame appropriate argument about the british army.

The mortar while having a short range deals the highest damage of them all and has the highest rate of fire.[/q

[aeroblade56]

On a side note British infantry is the most durable and this affects their support weapons as well. Vickers 303 is better than the american 30 cal for it comes with far more durable crew. It is a better MG overall of the two. The mortar while having a short range deals the highest damage of them all and has the highest rate of fire. Everything british wield is good, their rifles aren't the greatest but they are neither the worst. Their tanks are role based unlike WM and American ones which means neither are good at everything but good at their intended roles. All in all moot point. The british officer structure is changed due to their powerful constant buffs they provide.

Smoke is known to be powerful which is why smoke nades were nerfed to make them less effective. Whilst british smoke deployment aren't the greatest (The greatest form is CCT smoke barrage) they still have non-doctrine ways to do it. Mortar and rifle grenades for instance.

RCA's arty spam is something which is annoying while the two mentioned barrages are random at best. Earthshaker is good for a larger area clearing, I've found it to be a massive diceroll as it comes on so late. the airburst is very fun to use against infantry blobs or a support weapon blob to force them to move or suffer damage with potential crew wipe. It is hard to say if the two offmaps are OP or not since the two have been nerfed in the past (At least earthshaker). I'd say the offmaps are balanced in a way since they aren't instant and anyone has enough time to pull away before the first shell lands and pray for lady luck that it doesn't drift on your retreating units.

oh good i was so excited that i had to take a 2 pop 180mp 40 munies and 65 fuel unit for smoke to use 2x. or a 75munie riflenade smoke on cooldown, no if i want smoke i have to take the shitty 2inch mortar with 0 range.

as that wasnt bad enough i could take the 2 inch mortar(22 damage around there) and compare it to the whopping 36 damage of the axis mortar(WOW)

surely 22 damage is much higher than 36.

Survivability wise yes they are better then americans but atg/hmg do not get AP rounds.

anyone who uses brits without officers knows they are some of the worse infantry.

[aeroblade56]

oh good i was so excited that i had to take a 2 pop 180mp 40 munies and 65 fuel unit for smoke to use 2x. or a 75munie riflenade smoke on cooldown, no if i want smoke i have to take the shitty 2inch mortar with 0 range.

as that wasnt bad enough i could take the 2 inch mortar(22 damage around there) and compare it to the whopping 36 damage of the axis mortar(WOW)

surely 22 damage is much higher than 36.

Survivability wise yes they are better then americans but atg/hmg do not get AP rounds.

anyone who uses brits without officers knows they are some terrible infantry.

[skaffa]

I agrizzly offmaps are pretty bad for gameplay. Every time I see them being dropped on my atgs I feel a lil rage coming, cause easymode 1 click saves weak enemy. In OMGmod there are no offmaps and it feels real nice with a lil spice n rice.

[nikomas]

Skaffa you sound like you should go play the sheldt with a comment like that 

Support weapon meta = Worst thing ever = Why omg was boring.
Besides, OMG had other artillery options (Axis howie, sherman 105 barrage (It fired like a wespe)) and so on.

[Hicks58]

The british mortar deals 22 damage to the WM mortar's 36. It has a good ROF, but terrible, terrible damage and range that is atrocious. But I want to focus on your damage remark, which was very wrong. When you come on to these forums to argue changes for a mod you do not actively play, it has consequences for the people who play and love it. This kind of misinformation is harmful, especially if it is used to justify unneccessary nerfs or off base appraisals that the british support weapons are effective.

I should throw in the fact that the British 2 inch does 22 damage on it's barrage ability (Which is where the 22 damage number comes from)... With a 2x damage modifier to all infantry. That makes it do 44 damage.

Not that I like supporting Speedy, but facts are facts.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I should throw in the fact that the British 2 inch does 22 damage on it's barrage ability (Which is where the 22 damage number comes from)... With a 2x damage modifier to all infantry. That makes it do 44 damage.

Not that I like supporting Speedy, but facts are facts.

Is that a modifier that applies to support weapons as well (the main thing a mortar is meant to fight)? Do any other mortars have a similar modifier?

[TheWindCriesMary]

Skaffa you sound like you should go play the sheldt with a comment like that 

Support weapon meta = Worst thing ever = Why omg was boring.
Besides, OMG had other artillery options (Axis howie, sherman 105 barrage (It fired like a wespe)) and so on.

We have other artillery options too. We have zero need for lazy offmaps in the game. Just axe them all and we'll all be better players for it.