Riflemen

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[Smokaz]

guna play some 3v3s with epic build of rifles and grenades and see how many volks i come up against.

Upgraded rifles shred volks (except terror volks with the right choices) so they are kinda worse off.

Volks mp/40 can't reliably win any kind of 1v1 engagement vs a rifle with bars + grenade.

As good as the faust is, it doesn't have the potential game changing effect of a sticky either.

[GrayWolf]

Probably wrong thread to ask for it, but shall we buff Mp40s?

[Smokaz]

Probably wrong thread to ask for it, but shall we buff Mp40s?

Start a new topic for this.

Or post in megathread.

[aeroblade56]

Good im glad a 60 munies upgrade gets destroyed by a 100+ means that the grenades are doing their jobs.

like i said the problem isnt volks its a problem with never actually fighting volks. and as nightrain just said he is just about the only one who doesnt use volks for recrews and capping.

[nikomas]

Please do explain to me why Americans cant have a higher quality infantry option outside of doctrines? I never felt like this univeral law that axis inf should shin-kick allied inf is some sort of good thing.

For the record, grenadiers are a Tier2 unit in vcoh and riflemen are a Tier1. I'm quite sure this was balanced out in vcoh by the fact that BAR's were a fuel, not munitions upgrade and applied to everything. That and riflemen vet was way, way better in vcoh. Rifleman veterancy could legitimately be called part of their progression and that's something they absolutely don't have here.

[Smokaz]

I dont think vcoh system matters that much, even as a frame of reference. Its so different now in terms of what faction "should" have what.

[Hicks58]

And yet, many units are still based off their vCoH balance, which was a tier based system that deliberately made initial units redundant as you progressed up the tech tree.

Ever see somebody buy a StuG once you hit T4?

Volks once you got Grenadiers?

Riflemen as soon as you got any doctrinal inf?

The list goes on, and we still have the bulk of EiRR units based off the vCoH's balance system when EiRR has absolutely no tiers. You can't choose to tech up if things look difficult, can't retreat if you get suppressed, can't spot repair away criticals or keep tanks topped up on health, etc, etc, etc.

EiRR's core gameplay mechanics are so completely different from vCoH, but yet again I iterate... We still use it's balance.

Nobody else seeing anything wrong with this?

[I2ay]

People would be less inclined to veh spam if there was an actual unit that the US could use as mainline infantry that doesn't require you to outplay the opponent. Rangers and airborne can be used as infantry counters with certain upgrades, but they are expensive and not really their go to role. Given a better option similar to how axis can choose between grens and volks, US could become a friendly faction to create coys for. I don't dislike rifleman but i can definitely see why people would consider them "throw away" units in many us coys.

[Smokaz]

I dont agree you have to outplay the enemy to get good use of zooks.

[aeroblade56]

I dont agree you have to outplay the enemy to get good use of zooks.

no you just need a T4 and rangers to get good with them.

because armor single zooks are complete shit.

[Smokaz]

They aren't. I find them critical to success with armor, at least with my playstyle. Zooks are DANGEROUS man. You can't afford to take random rear hits from zooks if you're fighting mobile warfare.

[NightRain]

no you just need a T4 and rangers to get good with them.

because armor single zooks are complete shit.

Entire PE doctrine is tapping feet behind you when you say that. Zooks aren't overall great but they are very cost effective.

Each US doctrine does give one a elite infantry choice (although some are 40 manpower more than grenadiers or so) like Assault Engineers, rangers, airborne + airborne riflemen. Naturally assault engineers aren't very great at long range but at close range and vs buildings they start to shine. But usually at those stages even riflemen shine.

Naturally if someone does want to think and create a additional US Squad one can go ahead. Just please don't let them be marines, at least not in their current form. (5x Stormtrooper rifles). But keep in mind that what ever it'll be it might overlap and make current elite infantry obsolete or a worse alternative. That's the reason why making a new unit is difficult. It might outshine the elite or be worse than the current. Think what would be its role, its intended purpose, its upgrades and all in all what will it be doing? VCoH Manual labels Volks as basic infantry and Grenadiers as assault infantry.

Also Possible options:
- Improving vanilla loadout on rangers for long range fighting
- Improving vanilla loadout on Airborne for long range fighting
Vanilla meaning standard rifles aka without firearm weapons
Naturally guess who has 'no' elite infantry? Armor!

[aeroblade56]

Why would anyone use 55 munies for a zook that probably wont hit and still better yet wont pen. on such a fragile squad. thats like walking around with schrek on volks almost.

[NightRain]

Why would anyone use 55 munies for a zook that probably wont hit and still better yet wont pen. on such a fragile squad. thats like walking around with schrek on volks almost.

Just because you get bad rolls on a zook does not mean it is a bad weapon. The only targets it has trouble penetrating is most vehicles of WM and handful of PE and everything else goes and for 55 mun it is a bargain.

[aeroblade56]

Just because you get bad rolls on a zook does not mean it is a bad weapon. The only targets it has trouble penetrating is most vehicles of WM and handful of PE and everything else goes and for 55 mun it is a bargain.

55 is not a bargain not on a weak squad.

80 munies on a tough squad with fireup and extra damage and accuracy is a bargain.

if i fielder 20 pop of single zook i guarantee you acspam will straight up demolish it. or pumas.

You go ahead Nightrain and you can take single zooks and you can play against good players and you can show me just how good single zooks are. same goes for smokaz.

of course nightrain wouldn't know that no one uses them cuz hes afkmaster#onlyplayswithshabtajus.

[CrazyWR]

The only targets it has trouble penetrating is most vehicles of WM and handful of PE and everything else goes and for 55 mun it is a bargain.

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

[aeroblade56]

its true i just used 30 pop zooks with nades and atgs. got raped. won the guy by cap ran out on the 30 minute

completely useless but of course AFkguy and dota2diva will argue otherwise.

[Smokaz]

55 is not a bargain not on a weak squad.

80 munies on a tough squad with fireup and extra damage and accuracy is a bargain.

if i fielder 20 pop of single zook i guarantee you acspam will straight up demolish it. or pumas.

You go ahead Nightrain and you can take single zooks and you can play against good players and you can show me just how good single zooks are. same goes for smokaz.

of course nightrain wouldn't know that no one uses them cuz hes afkmaster#onlyplayswithshabtajus.

It's underpriced on rangers.

And whats the point of proving anything here? Peope will keep their opinion. Zooks clearly do not suit your playstyle.

Crazy also thinks zook sucks, he's a known zook hater. He goes SE on his PE and doesn't notice zooks because he fields ISTs. Not saying this happens all the time ofc.

But to luft/th, zooks are a threat, not the biggest. Against wehr its all about flanking to get use out of it. Trading 1-2 rifle squads to mage some damage on a armor can mean the difference between your flanking TD/AB killing it or forcing it off the field, or it being sustained.

Its also a tool to make him back off, a 3-man zook squad forcing him to move the p4 before a shot can mean the difference between a miss on your 5% upgun or not.

Zooks are a soft or circumstancial counter. They are not your main AT. So your 20 rifleman company is pretty lol to me as an example. In a balanced MW company I would have 8-10, supported by m10s, m18s, at guns and other stuff. Vet 2 rifles get stickies.

[aeroblade56]

Again. no one will prove that they rock not from afkaxisplayer and Dota2pakistanipanda wont but will argue against it because once upon a time in fairyland where the dingle berries roamed free single zooks worked once.

[nikomas]

Non-TR Bazookas make for some wonderful firecrackers that will occasionally damage something.

In the hand of rangers you've got a reasonable Anti-Light armor platform, to bad rangers are seriously overpriced (310mp, lulz)
In the hand of rifles you've got a glorified firecracker that is liable to being killed from a single AC/Puma (thing it's supposidly good against, allegedly)

They're not worth it unless you plan to fight a 100% lv company and even then only worth it for defending ATG's from rushing LV's, something a sticky will do better when faced with anything larger than a puma. ATG's you should be spending the bulk of your AT ammo budged on and be recrewing instead of buying rifleman bazookas.


And night, you somehow argued in favor of the rifleman bazooka while claiming it is pretty much ineffective vs wher... You realize how much of a contradiction that right?