Possible Design change

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[tank130]

So a new idea has been suggested and we need your opinion.

First of all, this IS NOT decided yet, it is just a discussion that we hope will expose even better ideas.


The general concept of the idea is to have less vehicles: That means LV's, Tanks, TD, Heavies etc. Basically anything that is not infantry or an atg. Obviously PE will most likely be an exception, but lets keep an open mind first.

What if all vehicles were much more effective (more powerful), but extremely costly. What if we changed the stats (resources & stats) to a point that they could kick the shit out of infantry, but you could only afford a couple in your company. What if we also kept them vulnerable.
Essentially making it a very high risk high reward unit.

The thought was this may result in more infantry blobbing, but if the vehicles are much more effective than they currently are, would that eliminate the blobbing?

What if we increased the effectiveness of a vehicle by 75% to 85% but made it very expensive? The reason I use the word effectiveness is because for some units that would mean splash where others it may mean damage etc.... you get the point.

Anyway, lets discuss the pros & cons of that idea. Maybe that idea is a failure, but the discussion may open up better ideas.

[aeroblade56]

I don't think so. if we look at it from a vet standpoint no one wants a unit that can kill everything and then be killed by anything.

OMG mod might no be the best example of this but i think they have a Commander for tanks so he hops in and out buffing the tank he is in to some silly level, anyway it wasnt rare in OMG mod to have p4s get 40 kills against any company with alot of inf.

Also if this it to happen i would think of adding new infantry to the USA doctrine as all you will see is rifleman derping around getting raped by 4man oaks.



but again we havent had a patch in 4evr so anything at this point would be better.

[Hicks58]

And that's how we end up with support spam, and campy gameplay. Just gonna be walls of MG's everywhere locking shit down, and whoever runs out of indirect fire first loses. With vehicles/tanks out of the equation, you will only need token AT in your company, dedicating the rest to hard countering inf and support weapons.

The game will literally go from three dimensional down to two dimensional gameplay (From inf, support, vehicles to inf and support).

[XIIcorps]

The only redundant vechs atm are medium tanks.

Lvs are fine enmasse as they should be, Heavies work fine as bricks with anti blob guns.

Mediums tho as brought up numerous times either
A. Cost way more then LVs whilst under performing cost wise.
Or
B. Dont have the needed survivability in a persistant environment.

The 3 main mediums could see a cost reduction as a start and maybe 2x repaurs as a base.

[NightRain]

And that's how we end up with support spam, and campy gameplay. Just gonna be walls of MG's everywhere locking shit down, and whoever runs out of indirect fire first loses. With vehicles/tanks out of the equation, you will only need token AT in your company, dedicating the rest to hard countering inf and support weapons.

The game will literally go from three dimensional down to two dimensional gameplay (From inf, support, vehicles to inf and support).

+1

No to less vehicles and more infantry.

[GORKHALI]

I didn't mean very few vehicles ,the problem is the light vehicles they r too cheap so maybe make more expensive or limit the numbers per coy and maybe give tanks high explosive rounds and armor piercing rounds apart form tank destroyers. BK mod has it i guess( havent played in years )

and captains officiers or luitenent or watever they r shouldn't take a tank shot to the face and walk away.

OMG mod might no be the best example of this but i think they have a Commander for tanks so he hops in and out buffing the tank he is in to some silly level, anyway it wasnt rare in OMG mod to have p4s get 40 kills against any company with alot of inf.

Also if this it to happen i would think of adding new infantry to the USA doctrine as all you will see is rifleman derping around getting raped by 4man oaks.

but again we havent had a patch in 4evr so anything at this point would be better.

panzer ace officer looks like they took from Bk mod but we have panzer ace tied to doctorine so all tanks benifit from panzer ace doctorine unlock , so we don't need panzer ace officer like omg mod.

[Scotzmen]

I didn't mean very few vehicles ,the problem is the light vehicles they r too cheap so maybe make more expensive or limit the numbers per coy and maybe give tanks high explosive rounds and armor piercing rounds apart form tank destroyers. BK mod has it i guess( havent played in years )

and captains officiers or luitenent or watever they r shouldn't take a tank shot to the face and walk away.
panzer ace officer looks like they took from Bk mod but we have panzer ace tied to doctorine so all tanks benifit from panzer ace doctorine unlock , so we don't need panzer ace officer like omg mod.

I see suggestions, but no actual explanations.

For a start, Light vehicles being too cheap? Too cheap for what exactly? Are they too cheap for what roles they play? Some, maybe, others no. Stuff along the lines of the Tetrach, which is rather... Disappointing. The Staurt, while being moderately good at fending off light vehicles, with the exception of 50mm pumas, is pretty terrible against anything but. Hotchkisses is see people taking for sucking up whatever resources they have left. 

The last paragraph i canny understand clearly enough to comment. 

In my opinion, Any tank that isn't heavily armed or armored is a waste. The P4 and Sherman are just such a example, whilst being great for some medium support, it's rather hard to get them to pay back their cost before they get blown to bits by a heavier tank or an ATG.

I'm all for the idea, as long as heavy tanks and destroyers become extremely rare and we see medium tanks coming to the forefront, like they should be.   

[tank130]

I'm all for the idea, as long as heavy tanks and destroyers become extremely rare and we see medium tanks coming to the forefront, like they should be.   

That is pretty close to what we were thinking. The Heavies and Destroyers would become very rare, very expensive, and very effective.

Mediums would become very effective at taking out infantry and support:  maybe even other mediums?

What if LV's become very good recon, mine layers, and anti inf, but a significant boost to pop or resources to limit spam?

Perhaps these suggestions are not the ones that will work specifically, but the theme of the change is to revert the mod's meta game back to the days when it was not all vehicle & AT spam.

[XIIcorps]

Pool costs did alot to curb spam.
The only problem with it was some doctrines favored vechs more then others yet had the same gross pool amount.

[tank130]

I would sure like to see if we could avoid pool again, but it could be an option I guess.

Removing pool certainly helped a lot of things, but it kinda screwed a few other things as well. A lot of people claimed pricing would fix everything, but that doesn't appear to be the case with everything.

[Hicks58]

Pricing works fine as a balance element, but the problem lies in that Mediums at the moment aren't worth their 200-260 FU price tags.

They also aren't worth their 12 pop investment either.

They either need more field presence OR some serious cost reductions. We're talking bringing them down to 10 pop and the 160-180 FU range.

Or, another approach could be to seriously bring down their MP/MU investment. Taking a whole bunch of Mediums fucks you over for MP and MU, especially when you MUST get a healthy supply of ATG's or other hard AT (Which is usually also heavy on the MP/MU) to make sure the first Heavy or TD that comes along doesn't face fuck you.

[EIRRMod]

Or, another approach could be to seriously bring down their MP/MU investment. Taking a whole bunch of Mediums fucks you over for MP and MU, especially when you MUST get a healthy supply of ATG's or other hard AT (Which is usually also heavy on the MP/MU) to make sure the first Heavy or TD that comes along doesn't face fuck you.

That actually tends to be the reason I didnt choose mediums (Back when I played ;p)

[rolcsika0128]

Pricing works fine as a balance element, but the problem lies in that Mediums at the moment aren't worth their 200-260 FU price tags.

They also aren't worth their 12 pop investment either.

They either need more field presence OR some serious cost reductions. We're talking bringing them down to 10 pop and the 160-180 FU range.

Or, another approach could be to seriously bring down their MP/MU investment. Taking a whole bunch of Mediums fucks you over for MP and MU, especially when you MUST get a healthy supply of ATG's or other hard AT (Which is usually also heavy on the MP/MU) to make sure the first Heavy or TD that comes along doesn't face fuck you.

+1


Or probably add muni cost for heavies. Tiger / pers around 200 - 250 , + panther skirt should cost muni imo.

[nikomas]

I do believe Mysth wanted to equalize heavies and mediums by increasing the heavies costs in line with mediums, I think he wanted to do more but I only remember talk about the reapir kits, it's been a while. Either way, the idea has merit.

And as much as I personally enjoy medium tanks, I'd rather see stronger and more rare tanks than making cheap enough to be throwaway, Bad enough how it is with LV's and cheap tanks as it is.

[tank130]

And as much as I personally enjoy medium tanks, I'd rather see stronger and more rare tanks than making cheap enough to be throwaway, Bad enough how it is with LV's and cheap tanks as it is.

I agree. I think that was a poor design change we made when we started making vehicles cheaper and more abundant.

Stronger, rarer would probably be better IMO

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Hmmm Wasnt there a mechanic that existed that was put in place to stop things like this? If i remember correctly it was something about points that would go up to a limit if you had too much of a sertain type of unit, damn what was it called again?
no matter, youll find a fix for this anyways.


What would be a limited fix to this at the moment would be to incrase the base accuracy of the zooks/shcrecks and the ATGs againts light vehicles, that and make The medium armour more effective against light vehicles(accuracy i guess) That should reduce the amount of LV/LT spam thats going on, If then the medium tanks would start being a hassle just increase the cost of them, But if you somehow manage to fuck up the m10 in the process just make it so that it dosent suck against everything.

[Hicks58]

Medium tank damage sucks arse vs vehicles of any description.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Medium tank damage sucks arse vs vehicles of any description.

But if you increase the damadge vs All vehicles youre just gonna end up with a do all tank that nobody wants to face(exept the m10 as it sucks no matter what), Increasing the accuracy just makes it so that you can go head on but you dont have to be scared that its gonna fuck up your M8/Hotch/puma/stuart in 1 shot if it hits, instead you are gonna end up with a unit you might want to go in a pack or use as a kiting unit instead of using it as a suicide bomber that does its job trough sheer power of rolls.

Edit: What i wrote makes no sence but fuck it.

[XIIcorps]

What it should be.
Lv = Mobility
Medium tank = Mobility + Firepower
Heavies = Firepower + Survivabilty

What we have
Lv = Firepower,Mobility and Survivability
Medium tank = ......
Heavues FIREPOWER, Survivabilty and Mobility.

Mediums should be jacks of all trades, if it were a % thing.
Lvs would be 70% mobility 20%firepower and 10% survivability.
Heavies would be 50% firepower, 40% survivability and 10% mobility.
Mediums would compromise and be 33% across the board.

[aeroblade56]

What it should be.
Lv = Mobility
Medium tank = Mobility + Firepower
Heavies = Firepower + Survivabilty

What we have
Lv = Firepower,Mobility and Survivability
Medium tank = ......
Heavues FIREPOWER, Survivabilty and Mobility.

Mediums should be jacks of all trades, if it were a % thing.
Lvs would be 70% mobility 20%firepower and 10% survivability.
Heavies would be 50% firepower, 40% survivability and 10% mobility.
Mediums would compromise and be 33% across the board.

if its 10% survivability think about vet. no one would be able to vet up the buggers.