Balance? Balance.

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[Hicks58]

Mainly because people let him get it to vet 5 where it has all the bonuses to do most that shit.

Pershing armour is pretty decent. SP armour is Pershing -20%, which is good. Let it get to vet 3 and it's packing that with a further -20%, as well as another -10% at vet 4, not to mention it's +15% accuracy so it barely misses combined with Mark Target/Calling it In and the 20% damage buff which makes it's medium range/long range splash utterly lethal... (Not gonna bother with the full ramifications of these numbers, but some basic brain power should tell you it's bloody significant - for example, the -20% then -10% pen makes a Tiger's BASE penetration go from 0.7 vs standard Pershing to 0.4032 vs vet 4 SP, neverminding range mods)

I can bet it wouldn't be half the problem as a stock SP, rather than a vet 5 SP. There's a fuck ton of buffs that are being applied which give it a massive amount of room for error if you cock up here and there.

Disable it though? Break it's engine or tread break it? It's another crawling heavy regardless of how tanky or accurate it is. But, that requires effort, and frankly, fuck effort, right?

[omgNiko]

Yeah we have no other choice but to have a specific counter company every time...

[XIIcorps]

Yeah we have no other choice but to have a specific counter company every time...

Exactly the same situation for the MAUS, except the maus has more hp, eats mines, and has more range on its big splashy gun.

Isnt that the name of eir tho niko, remember coys and build effective counters.
Well rounded coys just dont work.

[omgNiko]

Yea, my assumption that eirr actually wants to move forward with a semblance of balancing is most likely a mistaken one, lol.

[Shabtajus]

Yeah we have no other choice but to have a specific counter company every time...

Building any PE company you must have at least 1-2 LAHT's with thread breakers. It's common sense isn't? You must buy paks/atgs/25pdrs also you need AI, support weapons and indirect fire. Basic rules building company right? Amount of certain units depends on what you strategy and game tactics you are going to use isn't? So where is the problem niko? Lack of imagination or maybe you don't follow basic rules needed to have a good company in EIR:R enviroment. I am really surprised that some guys CAN'T find good counters to certain units when EIR'R offers to you so many different units and doctrines...

No offense niko but your skills are questionable so as micro and game logic. I have killed deadbolt's, skaffa's, smokaz's, eliegren's veted SPs and i don't see a reason to say SP is super OP and you need dedicate all your company only for 1 unit to be killed. Many games i have played vs you niko and if you want i can tell you  few things where your problems start dealing with SP.

[tank130]

Those are fair points Shab, but please keep something else in mind.

The history of Eir has always shown the best players will continue to find the most powerful units and exploit them to their utmost potential. This does not mean the unit is OP by default, it just means that unit or combination of units is going to be the most powerful.

We can then look at those units and determine if there truly is an issue or not. I would suggest we start by asking the simple question: Does a competent player have to dedicate an extraordinary amount of resources to combat the unit with very little to no chance of success? Does the unit fit in the spirit of the mods intent in regards to game play?

One of the downfalls of this mod is how it degenerated into players being forced to build gimmick companies to counter gimmick companies. Simple as that really. When players do not want to play because they know every battle is going to be a gimmick followed up by a unit that by all accounts is op, interest is lost and active participants diminish.

Another downfall of this mod was the development team's mistake of catering to the elite player. Elite players will always be a very small percentage. Catering to them ensures you will always have a very small community. Elite players bore quickly and move on unless excited about a new exploit or slaughtering the masses.
The larger market, the mediocre player, will eventually move on depleting the player base.

But I digress:

Like most of the reward units, The SP was never balanced by a balance team who took the time to consider all the variables including doctrines & Vet. The Dev team just threw shit in cuz it looked cool and continued the self destructive attitude of "we will fix it later".

I think it is safe to assume any competent active balance team would be assessing the SP right now and implementing changes to either the base unit, doctrines affecting it, veterancy, or a combination of all.

[omgNiko]

I'm not saying I'm better than you Shab, but although I am able to make a successful SP-Killer profile, its something that has not been possible for the vast majority of players. I pack extensive AT in my regular company, and in a regular battle with balanced teams, although we can get the SP down to its last legs (the most recent game against it, we had it damaged engine with no more repairs and 40% health), the killing blow is lacking. So your broken unit requires a separate profile to counter. I've also killed Skaffas SP, and many others, and I've killed your Taces, shab, but this SP requires more attention clearly- both in terms of killing it and in terms of balance. It's a case where the most broken thing is exploited by the best, obviously.

[omgNiko]

So many of the reward units are OP, and they are in effect not really "reward" units at all, since everyone gets them frequently- especially all of the "silver" card units. They are so abundant that they are no longer exclusive or rewards. A rework is needed, and at least the most OP ones should be removed pending a rework.

[Shabtajus]

I just raped niko with 51 kills p2 and once again he come to forums...

[omgNiko]

P2 is fine, but the tiger ace is able to move as fast as a jeep... and pop blitzkrieg, lol...
Besides, we won that match Shab. So you got raped lol

[Shabtajus]

i can always take here a print screen of scores if needed 

but we should keep this on topic

[omgNiko]

Yeah- so do you think its fine from a balance perspective to have the Tiger Ace be able to move like a jeep, have 2 repair kits, and have the Blitzkrieg ability? And how about the Super Pershing with its ability to move and shoot at the same time as repairing while having dual repair kits? Won't the best players abuse these mechanics and disadvantage everyone else from regular and, more or less so, balanced games? Give us your thoughts, because this clearly concerns you.

[Shabtajus]

yea jeeps is UP, need buffs 

[omgNiko]

yea jeeps is UP, need buffs 

Don't skirt around the questions, scumbag. You have nothing to say about these mechanics being broken?

[Shabtajus]

yea  jeep be broken, needs to be faster4sure 

[omgNiko]

yea  jeep be broken, needs to be faster4sure 

Take your own advice and stay on topic. Clearly you agree that the Super Pershing and Tiger Ace are overpowered- nothing to indicate to the contrary?

[Shabtajus]

I never said that. It's your own words. I said you can make counters to any unit or strategy it's only your micro and skills must be at certain level to kill some so called OP units


L2P

[nikomas]

While you can certainly kill SP's/Aces if you focus all your effort on it, the effort required to kill them is very unporportional to the cost/pop of those units. I don't think anyone is arguing that killing one is impossible, rather that trying to kill one is likely to lose you the game in the process.

This SP discussion sounds almost exactly the same as the one that made us take out the Maus, I'm not saying take out the SP but adjustments do seem in order imho.

[omgNiko]

I never said that. It's your own words. I said you can make counters to any unit or strategy it's only your micro and skills must be at certain level to kill some so called OP units


L2P

My words were simply questions directed at you to see if you think the current mechanics of the SP and TA are OP, and in 3 posts you have failed to provide a single insight or counter-argument, and relegated your responses to banter unrelated to these questions- which are the topic of this thread. This is the balance forum, and you are diverting from a meaningful and insightful discussion relating to this issue.

If YOU, shab, cannot produce a single shred of argument as to why the current mechanics of the SP and TA are NOT OP- then what are we all to think here? You're the man of the hour- lets hear what you really have to say on this topic shab.

[Shabtajus]

Don't skirt around the questions, scumbag. You have nothing to say about these mechanics being broken?

What do you mean broken mechanics? Is it when 1 unit rapes you? I call it bad luck or L2P.


Short story in 6 steps why niko is mad:

1) niko gets AB spam
2) shab comes with single p2 and kills half of his coy
3) niko goes to forums
4) niko demands justice and nerfbat for rew units
5) uncle Shab is good guy offers him some lube
6) niko is happy now, aint gonna hurt so much next time.