Hotchkiss Stuka [PE]

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[terrapinsrock]

Lets talk about the Hotchkiss Stuka.

Its changes, mainly taking away the main gun, has affected it to the point that it is more cost effective to bring on a Mortar HT and pretend the Hotchkiss Stuka doesn't exist.  Not only this, but it is very overpriced (160 fuel compared to the GMC which is only 120 right now).

These stats are compared to the GMC (I did this as this was the most recent change to a indirect unit for the Allies)
                                                     Stuka         GMC
Max scatter                                      15              6
Max angle scatter                              10              5
FOW distance multiplier                       1.5             2
FOW Angle multiplier                            3               3

If you are going to take away its main gun, then either the Stuka rockets need to have reduced scatter to perform for its cost or just give back the main gun.  

Please refer to this first replay for a reference
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=28915.msg496882;topicseen#new

[Tachibana]

These stats are compared to the GMC (I did this as this was the most recent change to a indirect unit for the Allies)
                                                      Stuka         GMC
Max scatter                                       15              6
Max angle scatter                              10              5
FOW distance multiplier                     1.5             2
FOW Angle multiplier                          3               3

Fixed

[terrapinsrock]

Fixed

Thanks!

[aeroblade56]

Comparing a stuka to a gmc doesn't sound like a good comparison.

especially since the gmcs penetration was reduced

[AlphaTIG]

Comparing a stuka to a gmc doesn't sound like a good comparison.

especially since the gmcs penetration was reduced

it would make more sense to compare it to the mortar ht, if comparing it to anything.

actually it would be nice to see the numbers of that comparison.

[Shabtajus]

PE stuka is shit tbh. Rockets has retarded scatter and damage is shit even when rocket directly hits a target. Time between rockets are launched and when hits a target is way too long as well.

Give more rockets to this thing or reduce/increase parameters mentioned above.

[tank130]

Why are you trying to compare the GMC to anything? It is a unit that does what it does.

Not everything in the game has be like something else you know......

[AlphaTIG]

Why are you trying to compare the GMC to anything? It is a unit that does what it does.

Not everything in the game has be like something else you know......

Yes, the gmsc does what it does, but:

how does it perform compared to units in similar roles?
what is the price/pop of those units?
if its performing better or worse than units in similar roles, is there an appropriate difference in price/pop?

is the unit worth using?

bc if thats not the case, balancing failed and there will be yet again a unit like the wespe or the pak 36 which noone used.

noone says that everything has to be like something else,
but comparing units and their performace as well as their price is important for balancing them,
as long as the comparison makes sense, which is not the case in the OP.

it would make more sense to compare it to the mortar ht, if comparing it to anything.

[TheVolskinator]

I would surmise that the QQ is due in large part to the fact that the GMC went nearly unused for years, and people aren't used to facing it--not used to having to move their Axis support weapons about when attacked by an effective long-range Allied weapon (that's not a Howitzer/Callie).

The GMC isn't very good at nailing single squads behind solid cover; any solid cover is likely to eat the shot long before the shell reaches your troops, actually. So, building sandbags to cower behind is mildly effective at preventing getting ganked by a GMC.

[GrayWolf]

Quick fix to GMC? Add STUPA to PE and watch how both are played. Then you can compare both and nerf/buff both.
Easy and quick solution.

[tank130]

Quick fix to GMC? Add STUPA to PE and watch how both are played. Then you can compare both and nerf/buff both.
Easy and quick solution.

PE doesn't need it.
See, that's mistake with trying to compare units. Just test the unit as it is intended and stop wasting time and energy trying to find a comparable unit.

We were not trying to have comparable units when we made the change. We just added a unit that filled a role for the US.

[terrapinsrock]

Why are you trying to compare the GMC to anything? It is a unit that does what it does.

Not everything in the game has be like something else you know......

I compared it as it was the latest change to a indirect unit as the Allies, not because they are similar. I did it to point out that the Hotchkiss Stuka in no way or form deserved the castration that it received. 

[GrayWolf]

See, that's mistake with trying to compare units. Just test the unit as it is intended and stop wasting time and energy trying to find a comparable unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_reference

I might be wrong here, but if you want to make a balance a unit without comparing it to the other, you can make one far better than the other despite they have the same work to do.

For example GMC and Stupa are 99% the same thing in terms of mechanics and it's purpose.
You can give GMC 60 range and stupa 50. They will still work as intended, but the german one will be underperforming compared to the one on the allied side.

It's pretty logical to me to compare numbers when you balance things or you end up with Persh and Tiger having the same stats, but in the actual game Pershing might be performing better due to the fact it has to kill less men to wipe out the whole squad.

I'm not saying you should give both sides the same units, BUT if both sides already have the same unit, it might be wise to look at both of them while balancing.

I would surmise that the QQ is due in large part to the fact that the GMC went nearly unused for years.

https://goo.gl/T4gUiU

[GrayWolf]

Anyway, this post is about Hotchkai, so we better focus on this topic.

I propose nerfing it's speed/gun and buffing the rockets damage. Recharge was fine imo, but the damage is awful and it cannot kill infantry with direct shots. :/

[Tachibana]

I would like to ask, once again, that we stop theory-crafting and attempting to find unit comparisons(both community and devs) and start playing and posting replays for the Dev team to watch and assess. If there is a serious discrepancy between unit performance and what was envisioned by the team, be sure that there will be alterations.

Be equally sure that nothing is likely to change if everybody decides simply arguing is the best way to convince people of their points. Its pretty ironic when Terrapin (the great bastion of goodwill that he is) has the most useful post in the entire thread.

[tank130]

For example GMC and Stupa are 99% the same thing in terms of mechanics and it's purpose.

Nope - not why we made the changes we did, but you are more than welcome to use the unit however you find works best for you. As long as you continue to try and find a unit comparison, you will fail at trying to find a balance.

I would like to ask, once again, that we stop theorycrafting and attempting to find unit comparisons(both community and devs) and start playing and posting replays for the Dev team to watch and assess. If there is a serious discrepency between unit performance and what was envisioned by the team, be sure that there will be alternations.

This pretty much sums it up......... except we will probably make alterations.  Alternations could be repetitive and unproductive. 

[Mysthalin]

Decided to check the forums just as a passing fancy and saw this thread and just couldn't resist logging in to comment.

Really, you took away it's main gun? Why? It was hardly ever that useful to begin with, even when it did have the main gun. Situationally good but hard to justify spending an entire marder's worth of fuel on except in extremely infantry-AT heavy builds.

Right now you literally have a unit that fires 33% less rockets than a stuka halftrack for the same pop value and a marginal cost reduction at best (that's ignoring the fact that fuel for PE is a lot more important than it is for Wehrmacht). The stuka halftrack was never a good or popular unit to begin with (except that one bugged patch where it basically dealt twice as much splash damage as it should and everyone and their mum was blobbing airborne). Why would a less powerful version of this ever be good?

Experimentation is the way to balance, but this is not an experiment that needed to be made, I don't think. You'll need to do something radical like reducing it's cooldown by literally a half before it is a halfway worthy competitor to the mortar halftrack, I'm afraid.
Or give it back it's main gun and actually consider giving it some love on top of that, rather than a nerf.

[TheVolskinator]

The problem is that people could and did call in 2-4 at a time, and would then barrage your position (usually ganking your ATG even if you tried to GTFO the second you heard the rockets) and proceed to rush in and finish off your infantry/LVs at their leisure. Repeat ad nauseam.

[tank130]

Decided to check the forums just as a passing fancy and saw this thread and just couldn't resist logging in to comment.

Really, you took away it's main gun? Why? It was hardly ever that useful to begin with, even when it did have the main gun. Situationally good but hard to justify spending an entire marder's worth of fuel on except in extremely infantry-AT heavy builds.

Right now you literally have a unit that fires 33% less rockets than a stuka halftrack for the same pop value and a marginal cost reduction at best (that's ignoring the fact that fuel for PE is a lot more important than it is for Wehrmacht). The stuka halftrack was never a good or popular unit to begin with (except that one bugged patch where it basically dealt twice as much splash damage as it should and everyone and their mum was blobbing airborne). Why would a less powerful version of this ever be good?

Experimentation is the way to balance, but this is not an experiment that needed to be made, I don't think. You'll need to do something radical like reducing it's cooldown by literally a half before it is a halfway worthy competitor to the mortar halftrack, I'm afraid.
Or give it back it's main gun and actually consider giving it some love on top of that, rather than a nerf.

I think you need to review all of the changes, especially the game design changes we have made, or are in the process of making, before you can make that kind of judgement. I think you are basing your opinion on the previous design and balance.

The main reason we removed the main gun on the Stuka was a design decision that no LV should be multi-purpose. In fact, no vehicles or tanks are to be multi purpose or self supporting. We are designing towards combined arms.
We are putting these units out to be play tested and get a real sense of what has to happen to balance them. Too much time has been wasted over the years with theory balance. We can 'hot fix' patch quickly when changes need to be made. In fact, we made some resource changes on the last patch in less than 24 hrs.

[GrayWolf]

So EiR is going to be Starcraft now, with all the counters and no multi-purpose units? https://goo.gl/LH3yZc


Anyway, stuka was never self-supporting and no matter how you look at it. Stuka hotchkai was just a hotchkai, but addition of no-damage rockets. Disabling it's main gun and leaving it be 4 rockets on tracks is not so brilliant as you, devs, think.
If you can make it useful without it's maingun, they I'll be the first one to glorify it as a miracle.

I hope you can pull it off.