Regarding Calliope Vet 3

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[Steelcitysentinel]

To be honest i've only fought a calliope a few times and i would say it's arguable to call it somehwat too damaging. As soon as you realise it's there it becomes the number 1 target, it prevents you from entrenching anywhere, and can be relied upon to kill almost anything it hits. Despite this i'd only argue for small changes to it, like 2 more pop cap cost or slightly reduced vet +damage.
 However in a recent game i successfully creeped 2 units of stormtroopers with panzershreks up behind a vet 1 calliope on about 45% health and fired at close range.. they did about 20% damage between 4!! hits and no engine damage or anything.. we lost the game. This was undoubtedly very unlucky of me, but i still can't help but be a little pissed off with that outcome, do callioppes have stronger armor than normal shermans or something??.
 My actual point is that panzershreks are one of the best ways to get a calliope due to the maneuverability of infantry and if the panzershreks are going to be about as useful as throwing liberated camembert at a tank then i'd say they should be a damn sight cheaper than they are.

[Thtb]

You didnt play against my 3 firework cannons, they are cheaper than a calliope & have faster cooldown

[Avalanche]

To be honest i've only fought a calliope a few times and i would say it's arguable to call it somehwat too damaging. As soon as you realise it's there it becomes the number 1 target, it prevents you from entrenching anywhere, and can be relied upon to kill almost anything it hits. Despite this i'd only argue for small changes to it, like 2 more pop cap cost or slightly reduced vet +damage.
 However in a recent game i successfully creeped 2 units of stormtroopers with panzershreks up behind a vet 1 calliope on about 45% health and fired at close range.. they did about 20% damage between 4!! hits and no engine damage or anything.. we lost the game. This was undoubtedly very unlucky of me, but i still can't help but be a little pissed off with that outcome, do callioppes have stronger armor than normal shermans or something??.
 My actual point is that panzershreks are one of the best ways to get a calliope due to the maneuverability of infantry and if the panzershreks are going to be about as useful as throwing liberated camembert at a tank then i'd say they should be a damn sight cheaper than they are.

i know what you talking about, i send my calliope killing platoon that is 2 grens with 4 shrecks in halftrack, unloaded in calliope's rear, 4 shot and 1 hit 1 bounce 2 miss.


i'll further back up my point that calliope needs to be 20 popcap, or somewhere near it.

it is the biggest artillery piece in the game, it is easily better than 3-4 walking stuka when vetted, and walking stuka doesnt shoot 20+ rockets, and fire 20+rockets every 40 second, and the 20+ rocket each have near damage as stuka rocket.

its un dodge able, unlike other artillery piece in this game, especially axis ones, this one fires "horizontaly", the first shell lands when not even half amount rocket is fired, unlike stuka, it fires vertically, when you hear it, you can easily move your troops.

what if 4 walking stuka cost total of 14 popcap? thats what calliope is having the effect.

being on the field in first call in with 25 popcap, 25-14 = 11, i can get 2AT guns and an mg, which should protects the calliope for a while

but for the german side, there is no adequate force in 25 popcap to counter calliope. which further means 14 popcap for calliope is extremly low.

what if KT cost 14 popcap? i can then send in an 1 kch and 1 gren with dual lmg to protect my kch and roll all the way to your spawn, your 25 popcap cannot cope with 14popcap KT, THATS why KT is 23 popcap not 14.


to who every laughing his ass off on my arguement about calliope should be 20 popcap, you should die in hell, and i hope you can never able to sit down again without your ass

provide valid arguement, or im gonna say offensive words to you, as i find your comment very offensive

[scrapking]

Consider that Calliopes were supposedly balanced, effective, but not dominating units prior to the last vCoH patch.  Then they get a 150? 170? second cooldown changed to 80 by default.  This was the previous Calliope cooldown with the T4.  Then throw on the improved spread / tighter circle - which was quite a nice buff to it.

Now consider that EiR changes to it have been small, 100 FU, iirc.  So basically the Calliope got a nice, if not deserved buff, in terms of the spread change, but every stock EiR Calliope was given a T4 upgrade for free with the vCoH patch.  Then, you can still get the T4 and cut its cooldown in half again (i.e. doubling its damage potential -  a second time).  A previously balanced T3 was made into a previously balanced T4, and the T4 further doubled the unit's potential again direct route into imbaland.

Now throw in the vet bonuses, which I think everyone knows by now are a work in progress to say the least, and voila!

Most OP unit in the game.

Fixes?

Correct the vet values, but not just on Calliope - vet values are more or less out of whack across the board.  But regarding Calliopes, give it bonuses that improve its surviveability instead of 50% more damage.  Faster movement, reduced pen, more health.  Make the resource investment a little safer. - DONE

Either a) Change the cooldown back to pre-patch values (150 - 170 secs), or close to it, leaving the T4, and everything else (but vet) as is, and the unit is still better than it was before because of the change to spread, thus not mucking with EiR balance, or b)keep the current values as they are, make the calliope a T4 unlock, eliminate the current T4 upgrade and create a new T3 having nothing to do with Calliopes.  I prefer option A, since it would more or less restore what was balanced to being balanced again but not without leaving Calliope players with an overall upgrade from previously.

I would be against touching its pop values for the sole reason that it proved not to work with Howitzers, and we are currently not able to change the pop values for Stukas without affecting all Axis halftracks.  Which, by the way, Stukas need a pop increase.

Just remember - Relic didn't make the changes to the Calliope with EiR in mind.  They did it for vCOH only.  We have to look out for our own interests where significant Relic changes are concerned.

[Lionel-Richie]

to who every laughing his ass off on my arguement about calliope should be 20 popcap, you should die in hell, and i hope you can never able to sit down again without your ass

This was my favorite part of the post 

[Ucross]

Calliope used to be 550FU  --  it is now 700FU

Just for reference

[scrapking]

Calliope used to be 550FU  --  it is now 700FU

Just for reference

OK, so does 150 FU account for giving every Calliope player a free T4? (compared to pre vCoH patch)

Does it account for applying the T4 and further doubling (on something that was already doubled) its potential damage output?

I think Calliope players are happy to get all that for 1 less M8 or maybe M10.

FU increase should cover the boost to its spread buff (and be alot less than 150, IMO) but FU cannot account for the above.

Imagine if they had done a similar change to Howies...

Or doubled Tiger damage...

[stumpster]

To be honest i've only fought a calliope a few times and i would say it's arguable to call it somehwat too damaging. As soon as you realise it's there it becomes the number 1 target, it prevents you from entrenching anywhere, and can be relied upon to kill almost anything it hits. Despite this i'd only argue for small changes to it, like 2 more pop cap cost or slightly reduced vet +damage.
 However in a recent game i successfully creeped 2 units of stormtroopers with panzershreks up behind a vet 1 calliope on about 45% health and fired at close range.. they did about 20% damage between 4!! hits and no engine damage or anything.. we lost the game. This was undoubtedly very unlucky of me, but i still can't help but be a little pissed off with that outcome, do callioppes have stronger armor than normal shermans or something??.
 My actual point is that panzershreks are one of the best ways to get a calliope due to the maneuverability of infantry and if the panzershreks are going to be about as useful as throwing liberated camembert at a tank then i'd say they should be a damn sight cheaper than they are.

*blahblah*

While I do agree that the Calliope is a bit too much as it stands, you really need to check your damned facts.

i know what you talking about, i send my calliope killing platoon that is 2 grens with 4 shrecks in halftrack, unloaded in calliope's rear, 4 shot and 1 hit 1 bounce 2 miss.

It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for a Shrek to bounce from the rear of the Sherman.

.878 * 5.68 = 4.98

498% chance to penetrate from the rear of a Calliope with a Shrek.  Quite a bit on the 'absolute' side, as far as I'm concerned.

its un dodge able, unlike other artillery piece in this game, especially axis ones, this one fires "horizontaly", the first shell lands when not even half amount rocket is fired, unlike stuka, it fires vertically, when you hear it, you can easily move your troops.

Bullshit.  Put yourself in the lee side of anything tall (house, hedgerow, etc) and the Calliope won't even touch you.  It is the ONLY artillery piece that can be dodged in that manner.

it is the biggest artillery piece in the game, it is easily better than 3-4 walking stuka when vetted, and walking stuka doesnt shoot 20+ rockets, and fire 20+rockets every 40 second, and the 20+ rocket each have near damage as stuka rocket.

Calliope barrage is 36.  Calliopes do 30-50.
Stuka barrage is 6.  Stuka's do 100-120.

Not even CLOSE in damage per rocket.

36 * 40 = 1440 average damage per barrage for Calliope.
6 * 110 = 660 average damage per barrage for Stuka.

2 Stukas on the field can almost match the Calliope shot for shot. 

The only problem are the cooldowns of the Calliope.  But WAIT!  The Stuka has a SHORTER COOLDOWN.

[zomgzombiescalliope]

His panzerschrek shot did indeed bounce off the rear armor of my calliope, I can confirm that.  So, either math is broken, or critical miss.

[stumpster]

His panzerschrek shot did indeed bounce off the rear armor of my calliope, I can confirm that.  So, either math is broken, or critical miss.

Chalk it up to a 1 in 1000000 chance then.  Shouldn't ever happen, although he throws it out there like it does on a regular basis.

[Prydefalcn]

Calliope used to be 550FU  --  it is now 700FU

Just for reference

OK, so does 150 FU account for giving every Calliope player a free T4? (compared to pre vCoH patch)

Does it account for applying the T4 and further doubling (on something that was already doubled) its potential damage output?

I think Calliope players are happy to get all that for 1 less M8 or maybe M10.

FU increase should cover the boost to its spread buff (and be alot less than 150, IMO) but FU cannot account for the above.

Imagine if they had done a similar change to Howies...

Or doubled Tiger damage...

Or maybe 25% sight, range, and 50% HP on support weapons.  Or 25% firing rate increase on armor, and 50% turret rotation.  Or Airborne with longer range.  Or armor with 30% more HP and 15% more deflection.  Or...


You're barking up the wrong tree by being selective with that.

[scrapking]

Calliope used to be 550FU  --  it is now 700FU

Just for reference

OK, so does 150 FU account for giving every Calliope player a free T4? (compared to pre vCoH patch)

Does it account for applying the T4 and further doubling (on something that was already doubled) its potential damage output?

I think Calliope players are happy to get all that for 1 less M8 or maybe M10.

FU increase should cover the boost to its spread buff (and be alot less than 150, IMO) but FU cannot account for the above.

Imagine if they had done a similar change to Howies...

Or doubled Tiger damage...

Or maybe 25% sight, range, and 50% HP on support weapons.  Or 25% firing rate increase on armor, and 50% turret rotation.  Or Airborne with longer range.  Or armor with 30% more HP and 15% more deflection.  Or...


You're barking up the wrong tree by being selective with that.

No, I'm at the right tree.

I'd agree with you if RELIC gave "Or maybe 25% sight, range, and 50% HP on support weapons.  Or 25% firing rate increase on armor, and 50% turret rotation.  Or Airborne with longer range.  Or armor with 30% more HP and 15% more deflection.  Or..."  and THEN  an EiR CP ability added it on top of itself.

[Stuart750]

Hey, folks, as far as Stuka vs. Calliope goes, a calliope has more rockets, yes, but the rockets aren't as powerful. Stukas are tank-killers. They get shit done. Calliopes are good against infantry blobs & slow armour (damaged engine & whatnot), they're not good against infantry in buildings, they're not very good at long range, and ____________________________________ [<-- insert major calliope hint here].

May I also remind you that unlike a stuka and nebelwerfer, calliopes cannot be fired from just anywhere. Because of the shallow parabollic trajectory, you have to avoid hedgerows and especially buildings, which will eat up your barrage if you weren't paying attention to where you fired from. In some cases, there will be enemy troops in a building, and if my calliope is close enough for a concentrated barrage, the rockets have a habit of blowing holes in the building, and then rockets shooting out the other side, with the infantry still surviving inside a half-health building. There's a lot more strategy in using a calliope than any other piece of Artillery (including the upcoming Hummel & Priest). The topography of the map also contributes to the effectiveness of a barrage. If, say, I were playing on Radar station, using a calliope, firing from the top of the hill (where the actual radar station is), onto a position on an incline, then my rockets are not going to hit the target as planned, most will, in fact, overshoot and land beyond the target. The same thing works for firing from a lower position to an inclined higher position, rockets will undershoot. Even when firing to a higher flat position, rockets will sometimes sail right over the hill and land on the other side.

Also, when firing at armour, a smart axis commander will turn his tank's front armour to face the rockets head-on, not run around inside the mayhem and try to flee. An allied commander does not have that option against a stuka or nebelwerfer.

Also concerning armour, Calliopes very very rarely do engine damage, if at all. For a Sherman, about 3-5 seconds in the fire of a nebelwerfer, and your engine is toast. Another aspect of Axis artillery that is quite effective and overlooked (I was, in fact, faced with this problem last battle, and had to call in some engineers to fix the problem, tying up my popcap).

Just for reference, the current cooldown is 80s, the current T4 cooldown is 40s. The old cooldown was 120s (2mins), the old T4 was 60s. Twenty-four CP to get the standard barrage time of a stuka. Twenty four (mind you, we armour players don't get an upgrade for better rocket damage, if I'm correct, you have a T3 that doubles the damage of Stuka + Nebelwerfer rockets?). Stukas cost less, are not dodgable, do much more damage to buildings & vehicles, and are easier to use. If it were up to me, I'd give the calliope a speed increase by about 40%, since it's about 25% slower than your standard sherman, and I quite like to go faster when being chased by a panther. A ten-point increase in range is utterly useless. No offense to the dev's, but as a mobile artillery piece, I don't really need the extra range, since I can just drive halfway down the block to make up for it. And now vet 3 has become obsolete to vet 2.

In conclusion: Walking Stuka halftracks are a far better bang-for-your-buck than a calliope. I just have a fetish for artillery, and because I'd like it to survive, it's got to be able to "Pack it and move...", as Grenediers say. I'm quite loyal to the allies, for an unknown reason, and I like my calliopes very much, thank you. We never seemed to have this problem before, perhaps because I've been stupid with my calliopes, and they've never stayed on the leaderboard for more than a day or two.


And for those who don't know how to pronounce it, it's [Kah-LIE(rhymes with pie)-Oh-Pee], not [Kuh-Lee-OH-Pee].

[Avalanche]

Calliope barrage is 36.  Calliopes do 30-50.
Stuka barrage is 6.  Stuka's do 100-120.

Not even CLOSE in damage per rocket.

36 * 40 = 1440 average damage per barrage for Calliope.
6 * 110 = 660 average damage per barrage for Stuka.

2 Stukas on the field can almost match the Calliope shot for shot. 

no u dont get it

calliope have 1.5 damage modifier on hit, so they do 45-75
then u get his vet, 1.25 damage on vet3
54-93.75,

so where i said near the damage of walking stuka, its true

[stumpster]

Calliope barrage is 36.  Calliopes do 30-50.
Stuka barrage is 6.  Stuka's do 100-120.

Not even CLOSE in damage per rocket.

36 * 40 = 1440 average damage per barrage for Calliope.
6 * 110 = 660 average damage per barrage for Stuka.

2 Stukas on the field can almost match the Calliope shot for shot. 

no u dont get it

calliope have 1.5 damage modifier on hit, so they do 45-75
then u get his vet, 1.25 damage on vet3
54-93.75,

so where i said near the damage of walking stuka, its true

http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/american/weapons/callirocket.html

You're talking out your ass.  I missed where this 1.5 damage modifier was.

[Ucross]

Infantry Soldier 0.7 damage modifier.  That's interesting.

[Ucross]

Oh boy, the stuka gets it even worse.   0.4 to 0.25 damage modifiers.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Stump its on the AOE.

[stumpster]

I stand corrected then.

[Stuart750]

Fuck sakes people. It may be overpowered, perhaps, but I don't think so. Axis have very good standard artillery, and more artillery available in doctrines. The allies have shit. Mortars. Bloody stinking mortars. Mortars with inferior range, nonetheless. Without proper artillery support, we'd be pushed back every battle. Advancing slowly, yet constantly, with well-protected artillery support is the key to winning almost any battle. Now with the 60:00 minute timer off, this favours that strategy even more. And yet you folks fail to realize that only about 3 or 4 people on Europe in Ruins actually have calliopes (this will increase, eventually), the only mobile artillery unit the Americans have in their entire arsenel.

Please children, calm down. Calliope users don't have it easy. We have intense arthritis, constant paranoia (which contributes to very little sleep), and we are slow, heavy, and defenseless.