Expensive Volks

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[UnLimiTeD5]

I vote for Kingtiger squad.
Not over 350 manpower!

[Unkn0wn]

Pre-Salan EiR Pricing is good, but increase volks price to 185 at most. Rifles should remain as it is.

I'm fine with that just as well, like I said, my biggest beef is and has always been that a 5 MP cost discrepancy is too little, 40 MP (pre-salan) too much. I'm sure we can both agree on that. Whether the discrepancy should be 15 or 20 MP is 'only' a detail, and only through extensive testing would we be able to clearly tell imo.

I'm not going to dig into the rest anymore, it's getting late .

[Matrin]

i want he-111 bombers to bomb the allies and me323 gliders to drop a panzer III an 88 and 3 squads of volks behind their lines

[Thtb]

----Wants to see volks vs rifle game. ----

[Mysthalin]

----Wants to see volks vs rifle game. ----

Has been done, on bastion.
No upgrades or veterancy on either side, rifles eventually won.

[Draygon]

Volks are actually under priced IMO.  There just to easy to "spam" effectively, combined with MP40s.....mass numbers of them suck.

Look at Probability, Mononitrate and Yelsew, all they use is Volks they have 1-2 grens in the company TOTAL.  That is retarded.

[31stPzrGrenadier]

Volks are actually under priced IMO.  There just to easy to "spam" effectively, combined with MP40s.....mass numbers of them suck.

Look at Probability, Mononitrate and Yelsew, all they use is Volks they have 1-2 grens in the company TOTAL.  That is retarded.

Why don't you make a volk army and I'll take my riflespam company and we can have a game = ) and you can decide if volks are still underpriced. Right now, look at the top players. They take mostly grenadiers in their army, like 80-90% at least. Volks are just worthless now.

[salan]

there is a rather large fallacy in your argument there.

Majority of players took grenadiers before I touched the pricing as well.

VERY FEW PEOPLE USED VOLKS AS THEIR MAIN ARMY SUPPLY ( I am, was, and will forever be one of those who use volks)

I always buy volks, i ONLY buy grens for shreks, max 6 per company, ever since I played this game.

The volks price increase was NOT there because of the riflemen.  when it was done almost everyone in the community said it was a good thing because the gap between grenadiers and volksgrenadiers previously was unacceptable.  It was one of the biggest complaints when viewing the german doctrines as a whole.   In order to fix that the volks were raised slightly and the grens were lowered slightly.

Even if volks dropped another 15 to 20 manpower, guess what.  Majority of the people you currently spout about being grenadier loyalists, will CONTINUE to be grenadier loyalists.

volks as a unit work really well in many situations and are priced pretty good for their sides army composition; rifles are not the place to balance them against as they are meant to be more versatile and hold an almost different role.

[31stPzGren]

Well, if they like grenadiers they can continue to use them. At least for us "volksgrenadiers-lovers" we can actually use the unit. If you feel that the previous argument is fallacious, fine. I shall use a more valid argument. By pricing the volks at 195MP against rifles at 200MP, you have made them an economical liability which is not cost effective.

I like to emphasize that the problem was due to the following reasons;

1) Increasing Volks to 195MP was abit too expensive if compared to Rifles at 210MP. Increasing to 185MP would be very reasonable. At most, 190 MP but without changing the price of rifles.
2) The concurrent drop in Rifle price from 210MP to 200MP screwed everything up because the difference between the 2 units will be only 5MP!

While a 40MP difference as mentioned by unknown was clearly unacceptable, a 5MP difference is terrible as well. At 185MP, the difference is 25MP, if you argue this is too much in favour of volks then lets half the difference at 190MP and not go any further from there!

The new price which I propose at 180MP against Rifles at 200MP (unchanged) will give a difference of 20MP which should bring the units more in line with balance.

[UnLimiTeD]

I propose looking at the whole picture.
Example, not related to this particular game:
If one side has stronger support weapons, and those weapons can be recrewed, either need those weapons to be considerably more expensive, or the units recrewing have to.

This might not be the case here, aside from PAKs being really more useful than ATGs, MG42s are stronger than their allied counterparts (actually they are not, they just fill a slightly different role and they do it better) and Axis Mortars are stronger just aswell.

Volks spam can overcome enemy 30. cals, Riflespam will die to MG42s.
Allied need 200 Manpower to crew 2 support weapons, axis only 195.
And Allied support weapons are even weaker/cheaper (I will not discuss wether this is actually the case based on your personal view).

So if Volks are overpriced compared to rifles, but priced nearly correct compared to Grenadiers, who are fine compared to rifles, everything is alright.

I propose reducing Volsk price to 190 and increasing Grenadier price to 245.
Increases intern difference by 10, volk-rifle difference by 5, thus making volks more viable.
With this change, it would even be ok to raise Rifles price by 5 MP, if it makes any sense is another question.

Any thoughts besides "BS!" ?

[31stPzrGrenadier]

BULLSHIT!

Okay comment aside.

Please justify the pricing and give supporting reasons.

I have repeated this many many times on why volks NEED to be cheaper than rifles.

1) In battlefield situations, 40% damage can be normally taken by the squad. Rifles will have 4 men left but volks 3. Rifles can recrew weapon and keep vet but volks will be lost.
2) Rifles can mount multiple weapon options which are superior to volks.
3) Vet 1 rifles gains MORE BENEFITS than vet 1 volks (-25% received accuracy compared to SLOW regen)
4) Rifles are able to fight at short and medium range where as volks ONLY at long range.

I have MANY MORE POINTS which I have raised in previous posts on this thread and PLEASE READ THEM before making this sort of suggestion that the "Pro-Volks Price Discount" faction is not looking at the big picture.

.30CAL Suppression vs MG42s
Argument not valid. A BAR is more appropriate at suppressing volks squad than a .30 CAL and it is mounted on a more survivable and mobile platform. AT 75 Munitions, it can suppress 2 volks squad... even 3 if you're that good with micro and estimation. Assume 2 volks w/ MP40s attempt to charge 2 Rifleman w/ 1 BAR, volks are sure to lose. If you take out the MP40s, the rifleman will charge you. If you go 1 MP40 1 vanilla, they will suppress the MP40 first than kill off ur vanilla. Cost and Battlefield situation wise, YOU LOSE.

Manpower for Recrewing Weapons
Get your MATH right. 200 Manpower for 2 FULL 3 man teams and 195 Manpower for a 3 man and 2 man team. THAT IS HARDLY A VALID ARGUMENT. If its a mortar/ATG, all u need is shoot the 2 man team once to kill it. If its HMG, it has one less HP. So, in terms of manpower cost per man for weapon support crew it is

Rifles : 33.3333333333333
Volks : 39

Don't tell me volks are more economical.

Allied Support Weapons are weaker
They are cheaper as well. .30CAL can hit light vehicles and have higher killing power, allied mortars... well, just cheaper but perhaps they plain right suck.

Comparison of Volks w/ Grens
If you even think about increasing Gren price to 245 thats totally out of the question. At 240MP they fill a nice nitch between an overtly cost effective & tough platform and too expensive and unviable.

Pricing SHOULD NEVER BE ABOUT SCALE OR RATIOS!!! It should be about the effectiveness of the unit on the battlefield, its versatility and the potential damage it can deal in its intended role and how well it can adapt to unfavourable situations.

Decrease Volkprice to 190 but increase Gren price to 245 and Raise Rifleprice to 205MP
Honestly, so what if volks are 190MP??? I'll still get Grens. That 5MP makes almost NO DIFFERENCE. On a scale of 8000MP

No. of Volks @ 195MP: 41
No. of Volks @ 190MP: 42
No. of Volks @ 180MP: 44

Giving me one more volk won't make a difference in the big fight. Even at 180 MP, remember that allied rifle price has been bought down as well which also allows MORE rifleman in, further reducing the volks to rifles ratio Pre-Salan price change.

Consider also that usually MP is spent purchasing OTHER units such as tanks, ATGs, Grens for shreks, MGs, Mortars. After that the left over manpower is used to buy volks. The 5 MP difference will be NEGLIBLE. TOTALLY NEGLIBLE. The only thing it will give u is that if you buy 22 Volks @ 195MP, you can get 22 Volks @ 190MP PLUS a pioneer.

Tell me how useful that is.

[Mysthalin]

Volks and riflemen hold almost a different role

Are you effin kidding me? They're BASE(As in CORE) INFANTRY. In vCoH the "riflemen vs volks" conflict is undying for a reason - cause they both come out at the same time. In EiR it is not so, but the two are still fundamentaly the same, just with the rifles being supperior at close and medium range.
Which is precisely why only a 5 MP difference is NOT enough.
Riflemen are a 6 man unit. That means they can not only recrew a support weapon and keep they're vet after taking 40 percent losses(which the volks can NOT do), they're also less succeptible to snipers. They're less succeptible to motorcycles(than volks to jeeps), due to the motorcycle having decremental buffs(which is why motorcycles do better vs a single sniper than a blob of riflemen).
Riflemen also dictate whether the engagement will happen with a victory for the riflemen, or if the engagement will not happen at all, cause it's easier to just get close than keep up the distance(units do not shoot to their backs while moving).

Bringing in grenadiers into this is non-valid, as grenadiers are "heavier" infantry. They can only be compared to BAR riflemen(and doubtably with rangers, but those fill a more simmilar role to stormtroopers).

Also, saying that "volkssturm beats 30 cals, whereas HMG42 cant be beaten by rifles" is completely false.
Volkssturm has just one anti-building weapon. And that is the assault nade. And since when is it banned on EiR, unless you're showing your company to the whole audience? Think it was in TLS 1 that it happened, no? And is it a T3 doctrine ability? Why yes, it is. It can also insta-fail if the enemy moves out of sight range or leaves the house it was in.
Riflemen have... GRENADES. Non doctrinal. Cheap. good range. Targetable on the ground, not only on entity. Much supperior to it's axis counterpart. I've even seen riflemen win vs an HMG in a building by merely positioning one squad in green cover at max range, while the other one went up to the side and shot the HMG out within mere seconds. Volks, due to the fact their rate of fire is worse, can not do the same to a 30 cal.

And we can allways remember two things :
1) Riflemen should be 6 pop, but they're 5 pop, due to common concencus. Grenadiers should be 4, but are 5 pop. Same with Sturms.
2) Riflemen cost significantly more to upkeep on the field in vCoH. EiR game mechanics can not show it any other way, but increasing the initial price of the rifleman.

[Draken]

Less post, more play Unlimited...

[UnLimiTeD]

What I told you is that you should not and NEVER balance volks based on rifles.

2. I prefer a PAK with 2 man over an ATG with 3.
I will more often recrew my weapons than that of the enemy.
So I get better weapons to recrew than the enemy, even if i can't recrew them as good.
The question is: Are volks viable compared to grenadiers and maybe even storms and kch, even if they fill a different role.
It's not the question if they are viable compared to riflemen.
Unless you found a way to buy both in one company.

And the argument with hmgs is completely valid, an MG42 costs me 40 munitions and can cheaply be recrewed by volks, BARs cost more and can't be recrewed.

Also, MG42s can suppress Riflemen in cover, Bars can't supress Volks in green cover.

The question you raise is if volks are priced correct based on rifles price.
Now if I increase Grenadier price to 260, will you still only buy grenadiers?
I assure you, I will, and I believe at 250 they would still be the mainstay of my army, but that's only because I prefer LMGs.

You can not balance a unit based on a single other unit, especially not a unit of an opposing faction.

Btw, at medium range volks might lose, but rifles will still take severe casualties and be near useless.
Volks at vet 1 will autoheal, just back off and come back later, Rifles need to have a triage that takes up pop and is only available to infantry doctrine.
Maybe that sound's stupid to you, but it has to be considered.

I would not be willing to have volks lower than 185 because of these various reasons.

Edit: You can compare Riflemen to grenadiers, and having arguments like:
Just imagine you fought a battle and lost precisely 2 men, then you couldn't recrew weapons effectively with volks....

Seriously, you yourself don't think that is ridiculous? Ah, I guess you don't.

Btw, Riflemen are just as succeptible to snipers as volks, as Axis snipers fire faster than allied snipers.
Basing the effectiveness of mainline infantry on snipers is a point to laugh at just aswell.
Btw, Axis nades have higher range, so Allied nades aren't really that much stronger, just volks can't get them. Really invalid argument, you got that covered in the versaitility aspect already.

And you ever thought of volks being able to shoot effectively at long range, taking cover, while riflemen have to come close first, likely without cover?
At one squad thats neglectible, but 3 vs 3, one riflesquad will be near dead when they reach the volks, and then 3 volkssquads vs. 2 rifles will be quite ok for the volks.

 Hey, if you bring stupid what if scenarios, I do so too.

@ Draken: Playing will

1. Not say anything, do you think developers play their game before they build it?
Even in theory it's crap...  And then people complain if for example the OMG team want's to test things players allready see as overpowered.

2. Don't help me as I used grenadiers already before the pricing change for their Grenades, LMGs and schrecks, and because it benefits my playstyle.
On other companies I still use volks.

---------

Other rhetorical example:
I recrew a PAK with a 2 men volks squad.
My enemy recrews his ATG with a 3 men riflesquad.

Now whos unit is more surviveable?
The one with cloak, the ability justifying the ridiculous price on stromies and their upgrades and +50 munitions on a weaker weapon, or the one with a riflemen more?

(I know how you will answer to proove me wrong, but you won't change the facts on this, they will nonetheless die to infantry rushes or artillery.)

Regards.

[Mysthalin]

you ignored what I said on the HMGs.
Show me 2 volks taking out a 30 cal in a building.
I'm sure I'll show you 2 riflemen taking out an HMG 42 in a building.
Plus, I have pinned a volks squad and a shrek grenadier in heavy cover with 2 BARs. Just because the volks and the grenadiers moved one guy out of cover, due to there being not enough space to cover them from one side. All it took was to move 2 m to the side.
You're wrong about MG42s suppressing riflemen in heavy cover. They don't, only after 20-30 consecutive seconds of fire, unless the riflemen were caught by a burst before they got in the cover.

That's a question of preferance, and something like "I like that tank better than that one" when we're discussing pioneers and engineers is quite unviable.

Also, how would it make sence to nerf the grenadier? They're quite OK for their price. By vCoH standards, they only cost 30 mp more than riflemen, here they do by 40. Pre-Salan it was grens 30 more than riflemen as well. I do not see why you should put a price nerf to the grenadier, no viability to that at all.

Btw, at long range rifles might lose, but leave the volks with 3 men, not letting you recrew anything, without loosing vet.
At vet 1 they'll auto heal? No. They won't. Volks DIE OFF, rather than take 50 percent damage before starting to lose men. They're not like airborne. Pretty much the same with riflemen.
So no, it does not have to be considered. It'll take forever to heal a vet 1 squad anyways...

[Thtb]

What I told you is that you should not and NEVER balance volks based on rifles.

The question is: Are volks viable compared to grenadiers and maybe even storms and kch, even if they fill a different role.
It's not the question if they are viable compared to riflemen.

They are the most comparable of the 2 forces. Like Axis hmg vs Allys hmg. You VERY well compare them.
For each MP in Rifleman you get XXXX and YYYY while for volks you only get XX and Y.
See, i just did it.

And the argument with hmgs is completely valid, an MG42 costs me 40 munitions and can cheaply be recrewed by volks, BARs cost more and can't be recrewed.

Also, MG42s can suppress Riflemen in cover, Bars can't supress Volks in green cover.

Wrong, Bars can suppres volks in cover.
Also you completly ignore that little thing called Manpower cost on a HMG Witch is more then what your rifles cost. Also a hmg is Static and can be flanked. Please CONTEXT.

If you watch evrything through a tiny little hole - focusing on 1 thing you wont get a overview of the balance situation.

The question you raise is if volks are priced correct based on rifles price.
Now if I increase Grenadier price to 260, will you still only buy grenadiers?
I assure you, I will, and I believe at 250 they would still be the mainstay of my army, but that's only because I prefer LMGs.

Personal Preference are a perfectly valid argument anyway...

You can not balance a unit based on a single other unit, especially not a unit of an opposing faction.

On what else? Axis vs Axis does not happen that much in EiR - IN Case you didnt notice it yet...

Btw, at medium range volks might lose, but rifles will still take severe casualties and be near useless.
Volks at vet 1 will autoheal, just back off and come back later, Rifles need to have a triage that takes up pop and is only available to infantry doctrine.
Maybe that sound's stupid to you, but it has to be considered.

I would not be willing to have volks lower than 185 because of these various reasons.

"Will take Serve Casutalties" - Nope,

a) you move close - raped volks
b) Try it yourself, rifleman will surive with 3-5 squad members left, 6 are not that uncommon - you can heal up fully

"Volks at vet 1 will autoheal, just back off and come back later", nope:

a) "vet. 1 rifles will eliminate you."
b) Auto heal - 15 mins to get back to full health? Srsly thats like superfast....
c) Just back off - Yeah, please dear Amys, we are now going to take a tea break, please dont do anything like ... following us, capping or winning the battle. Srsly - BRB 15 min!



I would not be willing to have volks higher than 170 because of these various reasons.

[UnDeaD_CyBorG]

Just as long as a vet 2 squad.
Volks die just the same as any other normal armor, like riflemen.
Airborne are special units out of the discussion.
Nerving grenadiers is a point I considered because volks aren't worth it due to grenadiers being more cost effective, not because of riflemen.
And who ever is too stupid to build sandbags big enough for his unit should not partake in the discussion, I saw single grenadiers with supervise or zeal take out several riflesquads at once at point blank range, I saw a sticky miss, that are examples that are not the question here.
I don't have replays anymore, but I once killed a 30. cal in a 3pop building with 2 volks standing in green cover behind a stone wall at max range.

It depends on luck, just like your BAR example.
You obviously have no other arguments for volks than to compare them with rifles, and that argument is INVALID.
Factions are different, they might be priced that way for various reasons.

And again you brought the argument with the volks losing 2 men and not being able to recrew...
1. Thats a ridiculous "what if" argument.
2. If you accept it, it invalidates your "recrew with 2 men left" as you obviously have to preserve vet on them.
3. If you have them for revrewing, what vet do you need to preserve?
If you have them for fighting, bring other units to recrew.
A high vetted volsk squad should never recrew anything, if your that out of units you can't afford bringing another one, you basically lost.

@ Thtb: Your arguments are, as allways, perfectly off the shot and don't say anything about the topic, trying to grief me, which you fail at, and increasing your e-peen, which you managed to do perfectly.

What you don't see is I'm actually for reducing their price to 180 manpower, I just wan't to see valid arguments, as otherwise, I would be biased. Nobody so far showed me one not including "what if situations" or upgrades, and basically all include riflemen.
You don't very often fight volks vs. rifles, both unupgrades and in no cover.

Personal Preference are a perfectly valid argument anyway...

Thank you for prooving my point with that sentence.
Thats what I meant.
Others would use more volks instead, voilla, volks are more viable.

[31stPzrGrenadier]

I apologise for my uncivil tone, but I'm sick of hearing people putting up their own opinions without refuting my arguments while I take the time to look through and refute their arguments. Its a test of patience and I am sad to say that after having so much discussion on balance, I finally understood why balance is so screwed now. Thanks.

What I told you is that you should not and NEVER balance volks based on rifles.

Then what unit should we hedge or compare volks against? In the stock market they have the NASDAQ index, for the industrial sector they have Dow Jones Index, for Inflation they have Consumer Price Index, for Commodities they have Commodity Price Index.

So just tell us precisely how should volks be balanced and compared against?

2. I prefer a PAK with 2 man over an ATG with 3.
I will more often recrew my weapons than that of the enemy.
So I get better weapons to recrew than the enemy, even if i can't recrew them as good.

I'm sorry, but there are more weapons than just the PAK which needs to be recrew. MG42? Mortar?

The question is: Are volks viable compared to grenadiers and maybe even storms and kch, even if they fill a different role.
It's not the question if they are viable compared to riflemen.

No they are not. I use a storm spam company and I win with them. I use a Gren heavy army and I win with them. The first few times I tried a volkspam army as with before I got my ass handed to me and when I go riflespam w/ BARs I have handed the ass of many an axis player to them.

If you so think that volks are so viable. As I have said before, go make a volks company, find a team mate and we fight it out in a 2v2.

And the argument with hmgs is completely valid, an MG42 costs me 40 munitions and can cheaply be recrewed by volks, BARs cost more and can't be recrewed.

Also, MG42s can suppress Riflemen in cover, Bars can't supress Volks in green cover.

Different applications. MG42s can BARELY suppres rifle in green cover. Same goes for BARs. BARs can suppress infantry in yellow cover as well as MG42.

MG42 = static platform. BARs = mobile platform + dps increase. I will TAKE BARs any day over MG42.

Versatility is KEY to winning battles.

The question you raise is if volks are priced correct based on rifles price.
Now if I increase Grenadier price to 260, will you still only buy grenadiers?
I assure you, I will, and I believe at 250 they would still be the mainstay of my army, but that's only because I prefer LMGs.

No I will keep my Fuking hands AWAY from Grens if they are at 260MP. I will just play a pure storm company. At most I will just take 3 grens because the muni cost for shreks are lower on them.

Btw, at medium range volks might lose, but rifles will still take severe casualties and be near useless.
Volks at vet 1 will autoheal, just back off and come back later, Rifles need to have a triage that takes up pop and is only available to infantry doctrine.

SHOW ME THE NUMBER OF TIMES VOLKS HAVE SURVIVED A MAJOR ENGAGEMENT TO HEAL BACK. At medium range volks WILL LOSE. So what if rifles take severe casualties? They are STILL ON THE FIELD. A single rifleman can be used to hold maps and prevent caps.

A triage doesn't just benefits the rifleman. It benefits AIRBORNE especially and Rangers.

[salan]

Well, if they like grenadiers they can continue to use them. At least for us "volksgrenadiers-lovers" we can actually use the unit. If you feel that the previous argument is fallacious, fine. I shall use a more valid argument. By pricing the volks at 195MP against rifles at 200MP, you have made them an economical liability which is not cost effective.

I understand your argument, if that helps.  you are saying that your cheapest fighting unit vrs the enemies cheapest fighting unit is 5 manpower less, and contains a different set of versatility then the enemies.

-rifles can build defenses with doctrine, not a game breaker.
-rifles have ok short range fire power, with a overall upgrade with bars dmg.
-rifles have a dmg out put vet list.
-rifles can be suppression whores with BAR's, definitely strong vrs infantry.
-rifles can have stickies, changes how axis tanks work considerably.
-6 man squad able to recrew guns

-volks can build defense without doctrine, very handy.
-volks have a survivability vet list
-volks have better long range firepower, and a cheap short range firepower upgrade.
-volks can get a cheap antitank 1 use ability that can come off as super sneaky and a hard counter to allied anti infantry tank flamers. <changes how allied tanks work considerably>
-5 man squad able to recrew guns.

if the volks were dropped 10 more pnts to 185.. you seriously would see no benefit from it in your army, you do realize that?   Its more of a logical argument then a rational one.

20 volks at 195 = 3900
20 volks at 185 = 3700

you realize you would have to buy 20 volks at even a 10 manpower reduction to even get 1 extra volk from it.  The point is with the manpower the way it is, which IMO is pretty good <different argument>, you will NEVER spend that much manpower on volks in the first place.

When looking at the price of volks vrs the price of grenadiers for instance, they are much better balanced with their current ratio's then they would be if you lowered volks without touching grenadiers, and grenadiers are almost touching on the low side, while volks are possibly touching slightly on the high side.

my only question is..

is the argument really needed?
What REALLY would a change do beyond satiate the mind?

I'm not really against a lowering of the volks price, just for the record, but I wouldn't ask eirrmod for more then 5 pnts or so, and even then I question the need for it.

[UnLimiTeD]

I just realised Salan can say everything a lot more calm and logical than I do, I just qft everything from him.

So just tell us precisely how should volks be balanced and compared against?

You should NOT balance them AGAINST.

I'm sorry, but there are more weapons than just the PAK which needs to be recrew. MG42? Mortar?

Both of which are more expensive and a little stronger than their allied counterparts.

But whatever, qft salan.