I understand your argument, if that helps. you are saying that your cheapest fighting unit vrs the enemies cheapest fighting unit is 5 manpower less, and contains a different set of versatility then the enemies.
-rifles can build defenses with doctrine, not a game breaker.
-rifles have ok short range fire power, with a overall upgrade with bars dmg.
-rifles have a dmg out put vet list.
-rifles can be suppression whores with BAR's, definitely strong vrs infantry.
-rifles can have stickies, changes how axis tanks work considerably.
-6 man squad able to recrew guns
-volks can build defense without doctrine, very handy.
-volks have a survivability vet list
-volks have better long range firepower, and a cheap short range firepower upgrade.
-volks can get a cheap antitank 1 use ability that can come off as super sneaky and a hard counter to allied anti infantry tank flamers. <changes how allied tanks work considerably>
-5 man squad able to recrew guns.
I'm fine with rifles building defence and it being a doctrine ability as well. However, bear in mind that until calliope is easily available, most of the players will be infantry & airborne players if they don't want to "farm" up enuff CPs for that calliope.
Rifles don't just have Okay, they have fantastic short range power for a cheap vanilla troop and decent med range power while sucky long range power.
Volks can build defence without doctrine but they can't build tank traps! Thats what I have been emphasizing for ages. Tank traps is the special thing! Compare having the potential ability to build them through doctrine and not having it at all!
Survivability is pointless if u get suppressed or WTF raped. If u are forced to retreat off the field, u can't win the game.
I don't deny the cheap anti tank ability. In fact, thats like the hidden gem of the volks... but the problem is, your platform firing it is TOO EXPENSIVE at 195MP.
It is the disadvantages that these volks have, these qualities which you have listed above which is HIGHLY ACCURATE, which I find do not justify the cost at 195 MP.
if the volks were dropped 10 more pnts to 185.. you seriously would see no benefit from it in your army, you do realize that? Its more of a logical argument then a rational one.
20 volks at 195 = 3900
20 volks at 185 = 3700
you realize you would have to buy 20 volks at even a 10 manpower reduction to even get 1 extra volk from it. The point is with the manpower the way it is, which IMO is pretty good <different argument>, you will NEVER spend that much manpower on volks in the first place.
When looking at the price of volks vrs the price of grenadiers for instance, they are much better balanced with their current ratio's then they would be if you lowered volks without touching grenadiers, and grenadiers are almost touching on the low side, while volks are possibly touching slightly on the high side.
Okay, read further up on my Posts, I did the mathematics for a proposal to shift to 180MP and not 185MP. At 185MP the volks are still not viable. At 180MP it just barely makes the cut and requires them to be used intelligently. Keep in mind that Rifles ARE reduced to 200MP. If rifles are kept at 210MP, you can place the volks at 185MP no problem.
20 Volks @ 195 MP = 3900
20 volks @ 180 MP = 3600
Thats a good enough difference. If you want a company run down... Heres how my company will work if volks are made viable again.
I will have 1 volk for each support weapon I have, which is 2 MGs, 1 Mortar, 2 Paks, 1 or 2 motorbike which puts me at 6 volks.
Of the other 14 volks, At least 8-12 will go into Infantry area as just troops for call in, or modified to be specialists with MP40s or Fausts. The last few volks will go into the call-in.
When looking at the price of volks vrs the price of grenadiers for instance, they are much better balanced with their current ratio's then they would be if you lowered volks without touching grenadiers, and grenadiers are almost touching on the low side, while volks are possibly touching slightly on the high side.
my only question is..
is the argument really needed?
What REALLY would a change do beyond satiate the mind?
I'm not really against a lowering of the volks price, just for the record, but I wouldn't ask eirrmod for more then 5 pnts or so, and even then I question the need for it.
Its not true that volks now are proportionate to EDIT: *Grens* costs. One of the big fallacies in this argument refers to volks @ 280MP and Grens @ 300MP in vCoH.
Bear in mind the HIDDEN COSTS before you can get Grens which is the T2 upgrade and the Kreig Barracks, which costs fuel and manpower. This costs are factored into the units which the game makers (hopefully) estimate them and therefore place their worth on it. So if the game makers estimate you will make 4 T2 units, the costs of getting to T2 and the KB will be divided by 4... and each unit will have its price raised respectively.
Therefore please keep this in mind when you talk about ratio of costs!
IN CONCLUSIONI believe most of us who feel that this change is needed is because volks are not viable at their current cost. Thtb himself said 170MP is the only right cost to go though I will be a little more conservative than to revert it completely. However, we still have the price reduction of the rifleman to keep in view as well as the overall reduction in supply of Manpower from 10k to 8k.
Balancing the ratios of the units cost with a similar unit on same faction sounds good in theory, but when worked out on the battlefield... its a different thing altogether. Think about economics. If your units are TRULY well priced and effective, why don't people buy them and use them? When the crunch comes, people just scrap the ineffective and takes what works.
The concept here is to price them at a rate which they are not overtly cost effective while keeping them viable. Personally, I have never seen the need to change the prices of the rifleman and volks since pre-EiR values however, changing both at the same time with such drastic values are bound for trouble!
I should think that all the scenarios and points which I have presented in this long and exhaustive thread should be sufficient to justify a drop in cost to 180MP. All the "What-If" scenarios are not plucked out of thin air but are experiences from playing many games of EiR on both allies and axis. While I may be an 'Axis' fan boy, I do not argue indiscriminately for one side only.
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