Paks sniping at guns

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[Tymathee]

Allies:
Calliope
Strafing Run
Howitzer
Airborne
Rangers
Mortar
Sniper
Offmap Artillery

Axis:
Stukka zu Fuss
Rocket Artillery
Fire Storm (Maybe, often doesn't)
Nebel (Maybe, often doesn't)
Mortar

lmao!!1 talk about Bias!!! you mention rangers and airborne, but fail to mention...

Grenadiers
Volks
Stormtroopers
Tiger
King Tiger
StuH
V1
Sniper (u mention allied sniper but not axis??? lol)

so whatever lol boy, the biasness of his post is so laughable.

[Tymathee]

oh yeah...i'll tell you gusy right now, the best way to kill any type of at gun? Grenadiers and stormies with double schecks, bam bam, its' dead.

U know whats funny...scheck vs stationary at gun, .75, moving 100% acc lol.

and on my list i forgot ostwinds and pumas. and officers (mortar barrage???) and goliath.

[NationalSozialismus]

Ostwind as a counter to an ATG? That's real efficient use of resources.

Grenadiers just get picked off or supressed when trying.

Storm Troopers aren't cost effective, they're worth more than the ATG, if you're using them in anti ATG suicide missions you will lose. The sniper was an oversight, that said the sniper either way isn't that effective and usually ends up getting 1 shotted.

The resource killing the weapon needs to be efficient for it to be a counter.

340mu and 300mp isn't an efficient kill of an ATG. (double shrek storm troopers)
or 240mp and 220mu isn't efficient either.

In addition, allies have far more unilateral counters (those which are hard or impossible to retaliate against). How many axis companies feature real artillery compared to allied companies?

If you bothered to read what I said you would've seen the reasonable assumption of a HMG supporting an AT gun on either side (German/American) and thus realised that grenadiers and storm troopers are NOT a counter under that premise. Whatever is used to counter the AT gun must be efficient. If you want to throw away one of two double shrek squads for an ATG go for it but later when the croc/sherman circle strafes your pak gun then don't complain.

v1 isn't a counter, it's so easy to escape, STUH's will lose 50% of the time. The times they win is when they are fighting a poorly positioned ATG.

I've played allies a lot also and I never had massive issues with pak guns sniping my ATG's and usually when that did happen it was in times when my opponent had no other option to push forwards.

Would I rather sticky bombs or shreks also? I would much rather sticky bombs, when the croc comes running at me designed to exploit my shit pathing on my double shrek squad, what if I could somehow miraculously slow it down and make it an easy target for the rest of my army and then easily destroy it, what if my units had a weapon which was so feared that units wouldn't dare to try and run me over....oh wait, sticky bombs do that.

I assure you, I'm far more afraid with a tank of sticky bombs than I am a double shrek squad. So the whole argument of an ATG being the only AT is invalid.

You basically claimed that every single unit we have is a counter to the ATG good work. The Volks as a counter? lol

[NationalSozialismus]

Rangers and Airborne are a counter due to fireup, run in, gank with satchel, run out AT destroyed, not decrewed. It's also far more cost effective (300mp and 50mu) .

[Scaevola]

Ostwind as a counter to an ATG? That's real efficient use of resources.

Grenadiers just get picked off or supressed when trying.

Storm Troopers aren't cost effective, they're worth more than the ATG, if you're using them in anti ATG suicide missions you will lose. The sniper was an oversight, that said the sniper either way isn't that effective and usually ends up getting 1 shotted.

The resource killing the weapon needs to be efficient for it to be a counter.

340mu and 300mp isn't an efficient kill of an ATG. (double shrek storm troopers)
or 240mp and 220mu isn't efficient either.

In addition, allies have far more unilateral counters (those which are hard or impossible to retaliate against). How many axis companies feature real artillery compared to allied companies?

If you bothered to read what I said you would've seen the reasonable assumption of a HMG supporting an AT gun on either side (German/American) and thus realised that grenadiers and storm troopers are NOT a counter under that premise. Whatever is used to counter the AT gun must be efficient. If you want to throw away one of two double shrek squads for an ATG go for it but later when the croc/sherman circle strafes your pak gun then don't complain.

v1 isn't a counter, it's so easy to escape, STUH's will lose 50% of the time. The times they win is when they are fighting a poorly positioned ATG.

I've played allies a lot also and I never had massive issues with pak guns sniping my ATG's and usually when that did happen it was in times when my opponent had no other option to push forwards.

Would I rather sticky bombs or shreks also? I would much rather sticky bombs, when the croc comes running at me designed to exploit my shit pathing on my double shrek squad, what if I could somehow miraculously slow it down and make it an easy target for the rest of my army and then easily destroy it, what if my units had a weapon which was so feared that units wouldn't dare to try and run me over....oh wait, sticky bombs do that.

I assure you, I'm far more afraid with a tank of sticky bombs than I am a double shrek squad. So the whole argument of an ATG being the only AT is invalid.

You basically claimed that every single unit we have is a counter to the ATG good work. The Volks as a counter? lol

1) About the stickies versus shreck - Are you serious? I would definitely rather put shreks on my infantry, stickies don't kill tanks!

2) All infantry can kill at guns quite easily! YES VOLKS ARE COUNTERS TO AT GUNS! I can't remember the last time my at gun got more than a single infantry kill.

3) about your "reasonable" suggestion of an hmg I reasonably suggest grenediers with grenades, no flanking required because u.s. hmg CANT SUPPRESS!

4) Why would you suicide double shrek storms to kill an at gun?

5) The majority of allied counters to the at guns can only be used once the at gun has been decloaked. Axis at guns can sit there forever at no risk until allied armor actually shows up.

[AmPmAllied]

I like jeeps as counters to ATGs. Mortars work too, as do all offmaps.

[NationalSozialismus]

U.S. HMG can't supress? Lol
Volks aren't a counter to an AT gun, we're talking destroy it, not momentarily decrew it so it can be remanned. If your AT gun is unsupported and alone enough that volks kill it then you deserve the death and you really are so bad at the game that nothing they nerf will help you win. You need to support your weaponry. If you don't have a HMG behind the ATG then what are you doing? It should be covered. ATG's outrange almost all tanks considerably Tiger: 40 ATG: 60. Which means it can be 20 behind your infantry frontline as I already said and still hit a tiger capable of attacking your infantry. I assure you, most good axis players don't have their pak guns out infront.

Grenadiers get suppressed the same as the rest, except when in green cover, but even allies don't get suppressed easily in green cover .

If the AT guns shoots once, you retreat your ATG out of sight, then fire up and kill it with a ranger squad, even if they all die, you've killed more than you've lost and thus had victory.

Learn to read, someone else suggested using double shreks to kill an ATG. I actually said it was a bad idea, but nice try.

I won't list names but there are numerous non TR allied players I have played against effectively and usefully using ATG's to kill axis tanks very efficiently. Their ATG's aren't easy to snipe and they are very, very effective against tanks.

Allied AT guns have a useful ability too, perhaps we should Nerf it .

    * Penetration x 5
    * Damage x 1.25

Giving it 4.25 penetration and 187 damage per hit. The ability which even without tank reapers anihilates our vehicles, regardless of type.

On the panzershrek 'issue'. The stickies have a useful advantage, when allied tanks play carmageddon they can easily see who does and does not have anti tank weaponry, axis cannot. So the axis tank must live in constant fear of infantry who may have stickies. If you sticky a KT it is dead/out of game. It takes too long to repair the engine damage. A sticky bomb effectively kills an axis tank, two of them and it's as dead as dead can be. Easy to destroy.

The cloaking on the pak38 is necessary because allied tanks are too fast, if it were visable then it would be completely and utterly useless.

Fyi for the people claiming historical accuracy with AT v AT in reality the AT guns could fire HE against infantry, in addition the Pak38 was more than a little out of date by the time that CoH is set in, the Pak40 was the standard at the time.

Finally; Is it really any different to the standard situation in CoH? The axis tanks counter allied tanks. Axis infantry counter allied infantry. Axis Pak counters allied ATG. Allied infantry counter axis tanks etc etc etc.

I can't believe people who claim that their inability to support their weaponry means it's shit. COMBINED ARMS.

[Scaevola]

U.S. HMG can't supress? Lol
Volks aren't a counter to an AT gun, we're talking destroy it, not momentarily decrew it so it can be remanned. If your AT gun is unsupported and alone enough that volks kill it then you deserve the death and you really are so bad at the game that nothing they nerf will help you win. You need to support your weaponry. If you don't have a HMG behind the ATG then what are you doing? It should be covered. ATG's outrange almost all tanks considerably Tiger: 40 ATG: 60. Which means it can be 20 behind your infantry frontline as I already said and still hit a tiger capable of attacking your infantry. I assure you, most good axis players don't have their pak guns out infront.

Well if the AT guns supported, then its not absurd for me to suggest something rather simple - support your volks. YES AXIS PLAYERRS HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO FLANK TOO! And you know what, I would rather decrew the at gun and grab it for myself, then destroy it anyways.

Grenadiers get suppressed the same as the rest, except when in green cover, but even allies don't get suppressed easily in green cover .


If the AT guns shoots once, you retreat your ATG out of sight, then fire up and kill it with a ranger squad, even if they all die, you've killed more than you've lost and thus had victory.

Except AT guns crawl away and with that 60 range of theirs it sure is hard to get away before you either lose a signifcant amount of health (one tank shot will kill after two at shots) or die in 3, plus YOU SHOULD SUPPORT YOUR AT GUNS. THEY HAVE 60 RANGE, what are you a noob?

Learn to read, someone else suggested using double shreks to kill an ATG. I actually said it was a bad idea, but nice try.

I won't list names but there are numerous non TR allied players I have played against effectively and usefully using ATG's to kill axis tanks very efficiently. Their ATG's aren't easy to snipe and they are very, very effective against tanks.

Yea, ATG are effective against tanks, thanks for that.

Allied AT guns have a useful ability too, perhaps we should Nerf it .

    * Penetration x 5
    * Damage x 1.25
Allied at gun ability is necessary to even consider tanking on axis armor, plus it costs munitions! Maybe make pak cloak cost munitions, except all the axis fanbois would be up in arms.

Giving it 4.25 penetration and 187 damage per hit. The ability which even without tank reapers anihilates our vehicles, regardless of type.

I gurantee every allied player would much rather have cloak, which gives advantages when shooting out of it, not to mention your pretty much invulnerable, because you can't kill that which you can't see.
On the panzershrek 'issue'. The stickies have a useful advantage, when allied tanks play carmageddon they can easily see who does and does not have anti tank weaponry, axis cannot. So the axis tank must live in constant fear of infantry who may have stickies. If you sticky a KT it is dead/out of game. It takes too long to repair the engine damage. A sticky bomb effectively kills an axis tank, two of them and it's as dead as dead can be. Easy to destroy.

Except hardly any allied infantry will ever actually have stickies. Not to mention stickies are incredibly short ranged. Seriously just kite them. l2p!

The cloaking on the pak38 is necessary because allied tanks are too fast, if it were visable then it would be completely and utterly useless.

Only as completely and utterly useless as the allied at gun is! PANTHERS ARE FASTER THAN SHERMANS! Seriously, stop throwing out bullshit like this.

Fyi for the people claiming historical accuracy with AT v AT in reality the AT guns could fire HE against infantry, in addition the Pak38 was more than a little out of date by the time that CoH is set in, the Pak40 was the standard at the time.

Finally; Is it really any different to the standard situation in CoH? The axis tanks counter allied tanks. Axis infantry counter allied infantry. Axis Pak counters allied ATG. Allied infantry counter axis tanks etc etc etc.

Oh yea, axis should just beat the allies in everything that makes perfect sense? About as much sense as the argument that the allies should win every game because they won the war.

I can't believe people who claim that their inability to support their weaponry means it's shit. COMBINED ARMS.

You try and support your weaponry against something that can cloak for 3 shots, and kills one of your most expensive weapons in the same.

[/color]

tldr; You're WRONG!

[AmPmTLS]

Axis ATGs already pay for the cloak, please check the relative prices.

57mm is DEVASTATING vs Axis armor when used correctly. Learn to use and love them and AP rounds. One of mine made vet 2 in a single battle last night, killing a Panther, a Tiger, and a couple random things. I play Armor, these were not TR.

People need to learn that the armies are not all the same, and not to expect the units to play the same in any way.

PAK sniping is annoying, you have a great tool though. Move your ATG back, let the enemy tank into your lines, STICKY it, then move the ATG up.

[Malevolence2]

lmao!!1 talk about Bias!!! you mention rangers and airborne, but fail to mention...

Grenadiers
Volks
Stormtroopers
Tiger
King Tiger
StuH
V1
Sniper (u mention allied sniper but not axis??? lol)

so whatever lol boy, the biasness of his post is so laughable.

And your list missed:

Riflemen, riflemen with bars, riflemen with stickies, riflemen with grenades, riflemen with any combination thereof
Sherman/other tanks (? Apparently according to you tanks are counters to AT guns? Very strange notion)
Flamethrower (or, hell, regular) engineers
M8s - You used a StuH, which is basically a soft counter due to being the exact aforementioned tank that AT guns are made to kill, but its attack is effective in turn. An M8 has the ability to defeat AT guns by outcircling them, but is also a fragile piece of easily destroyed armor.


You see, the list goes on. Your forum character sniping attack is laughable in and of itself.

[UnderpoweredAll]

If you would listen to me and perhaps some other far better and more experienced players you would realise that the counter to axis tanks is infantry and to axis infantry is tanks.

Whilst the axis counter with like units, the allies counter with opposites.

Tanks countering ATG's isn't cost effective, if I attack your ATG with my tiger I will most likely 'win' on half health or under.....Now my tank is nearly 3x the cost of your weapon.

If we use the RV scaling that exists in EiR:
1 Point for:
10 Fuel
15 Mu
50 Mp

Making fuel 5x the value of mp and 1.5x the value of munitions we have, assuming the RV system is balanced fairly and based upon a relative scale of manpower:

The cost of the tiger in what I call victory points being:
860*1 + 635*5=3175+860=4035

The cost of the ATG
380*1 + 110*1.5 = 545

If you don't like my equalising:
490 Resources in the ATG
1495 in the tiger

Meaning you can lose three ATG's in killing a single tiger and still be cost effective. Now, if your ATG takes off half of the Tiger's health, you have effectively done '750 damage', approximately. Repair bunker for half health takes long enough that for a Tiger it is rarely contemplated except in large games. The Tiger is also 18 pop, compared to 4 .


Hardly ever have stickies? lol I see allies with them in every game, you don't use them, perhaps you should.

[Scaevola]

Meaning you can lose three ATG's in killing a single tiger and still be cost effective. Now, if your ATG takes off half of the Tiger's health, you have effectively done '750 damage', approximately. Repair bunker for half health takes long enough that for a Tiger it is rarely contemplated except in large games. The Tiger is also 18 pop, compared to 4 .


Hardly ever have stickies? lol I see allies with them in every game, you don't use them, perhaps you should.

Oh I certainly have stickies, but there so expensive, they are actually ever on only a few squads.

[31stPzGren]

If we use the RV scaling that exists in EiR:
1 Point for:
10 Fuel
15 Mu
50 Mp

Making fuel 5x the value of mp and 1.5x the value of munitions we have, assuming the RV system is balanced fairly and based upon a relative scale of manpower:

The cost of the tiger in what I call victory points being:
860*1 + 635*5=3175+860=4035

The cost of the ATG
380*1 + 110*1.5 = 545

If you don't like my equalising:
490 Resources in the ATG
1495 in the tiger

Meaning you can lose three ATG's in killing a single tiger and still be cost effective. Now, if your ATG takes off half of the Tiger's health, you have effectively done '750 damage', approximately.

Unfortunately, that isn't a very good model. I can only say that the best way to gauge damage done is still to use Manpower. Munition and Fuel should be treated as "special resource" to augment your performance. The best way is of course, to match resource for resource.

i.e. You lose 1 ATG and 1 M10 to Destroy a Tiger. Its a worth while trade... except for 110 munitions spent in ATG which you then would have to argue if its worth the slight MP and major fuel bonus.

[Tymathee]

anywho...cloaking is OP and being able to cloak snipe at guns is very annoying and im glad its beign addressed by relic in their next patch. Point for, the axis hae more options to KILL the at gun, not just decrew it than the allies do with on the ground units, im not just talking off maps or artillery. you need 3-4 zook hits to take out a pak but only 2 schecks to kill any type of at gun. even though u can sticky at guns, its only best to use it to kill it if its low but youd need at least 3 or more to really take it out.  and even then zooks are doctrinal only.  When u get to AB, yeah u can use satchels but satchels take 5 seconds to explode and anyone worth their salt will see that coming. also RR's arent very acc vs pak/at guns and it take smore than 2 shots to take it out. Like i showed, shcekcs are 100% acc vs moving towed gun and .75 vs stationary but the thing is, u see gren coming with schecks, u want to move, not sit still. grends with schecks aren't doctrinal like airborne and callies and rangers, all axis docs can get them and theyre highly acc, same with pak, 100% vs at gun 75% acc vs moving. You axis fan boys are really bias and you still complain even though youre pushing the allies back.

[Killer344]

2 stickies are more than enough to kill a pak with 100% health.

[Sach]

I think hes right, takes at least 3.

[31stPzGren]

anywho...cloaking is OP and being able to cloak snipe at guns is very annoying and im glad its beign addressed by relic in their next patch. Point for, the axis hae more options to KILL the at gun, not just decrew it than the allies do with on the ground units, im not just talking off maps or artillery.

From what I know, Artillery (onmap and offmap) are the primary methods of killing axis paks and they are the most effective and commonly used. Cloaking is a much needed ability in EiR, when you have suicide crocs, OBM and stuff. Its quite well balanced as it is though I still think its more in favour of suicide crocs unless you have at least 2 paks covering each other.

you need 3-4 zook hits to take out a pak but only 2 schecks to kill any type of at gun. even though u can sticky at guns, its only best to use it to kill it if its low but youd need at least 3 or more to really take it out.  and even then zooks are doctrinal only.

You can kill it with any infantry squad....

When u get to AB, yeah u can use satchels but satchels take 5 seconds to explode and anyone worth their salt will see that coming. also RR's arent very acc vs pak/at guns and it take smore than 2 shots to take it out.

Only use satchels after u decrew the pak gun. How hard can it be? I don't think RRs are suitable for use against pak guns... but if you really want to its your choice but at 220 Mun.... I won't really recommend that.

Like i showed, shcekcs are 100% acc vs moving towed gun and .75 vs stationary but the thing is, u see gren coming with schecks, u want to move, not sit still. grends with schecks aren't doctrinal like airborne and callies and rangers, all axis docs can get them and theyre highly acc, same with pak, 100% vs at gun 75% acc vs moving. You axis fan boys are really bias and you still complain even though youre pushing the allies back.

I don't mind giving up my shreks for Air Superiority.

[Killer344]

yesterday I stickied a pak with full health and it did about 75% damage to it :p, I´m not sure if that´s normal though.

[jackmccrack]

Shrecks are very accurate vs. AT Guns.

[Tymathee]

From what I know, Artillery (onmap and offmap) are the primary methods of killing axis paks and they are the most effective and commonly used. Cloaking is a much needed ability in EiR, when you have suicide crocs, OBM and stuff. Its quite well balanced as it is though I still think its more in favour of suicide crocs unless you have at least 2 paks covering each other.

The reason artillery is used so much more to kill paks is because we fire into the area where we last see them or we fire at them while we can see them. We can't just look for them without infantry or baiting with some type of vehicle, so artillery is used. Also, crocs are "suicided" because once a cloaked pak starts shooting, most of the time you have no idea where tis coming from and the best thing to do is to keep going forward. Play as allies and see how annoying paks are.

You can kill it with any infantry squad....

god you're thick. Kill as in destroy, no more gun, can't recrew.

Only use satchels after u decrew the pak gun. How hard can it be? I don't think RRs are suitable for use against pak guns... but if you really want to its your choice but at 220 Mun.... I won't really recommend that.

i dont use it but someone else mentioned using it. Also, using a satchel on a pak gun after its decrewed is a waste as its one use at 50 muni and you usually only have a couple and usually airborne dont have a lot of tanks.

I don't mind giving up my shreks for Air Superiority.

did i menetino air superiority? you're brinign up stuff i never mentioned. anybody would give up shrecks for AS. but nobody would want bazookas. hell, we dont even want them, we'd rather have rangers not have zooks if it can be helped.