Sniper vs Hans

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[Malevolence]

Axis:
vet 1 - Health regen (10.56/min)
vet 2 - max health 1.2, rec supp 0.5
vet 3 - cool down 0.6

Again incorrect, unless the tooltip in the company screen is wrong..

[Wildfire]

dude, i took it off the stats page. i know some vet stuff were changed in eir, so if you think they're in correct, please show us what is correct then instead of just saying it's wrong.

[Malevolence]

Actually a vet 3 axis sniper in this game only gets 25% off cooldown, which is total and utter shit. Unless they changed the value from what the tooltip says.

Read more better.

the axis sniper does get a reduced shot timer at vet 3, i believe 25%

For a long time it's been known that Hans sucks horribly compared to Dave the sniper and, hell, Johnny the AT gun crewman for that matter. People in retail are still having huge conflicts over whether the allied sniper's dodge buff at vet 2 is balanced or not, I doubt we'll come to any conclusion here anytime soon.

Also while we're at it, make KCH actually unsuppressable so the tooltip doesn't lie, please.

[Wildfire]

i found this posted by Lai

sniper vet 3
Al Damage   1.2, Range +10
Ax Cooldown 0.8

hmg vet 3
*censored*

mortar vet 3
*censored*

jeep vet 3
*censored*

Rangers
2 Accuracy   1.2, Received Suppression   0.75
3 Damage   1.2, Fire-up Cooldown   0.5

Airborne
2 Accuracy   1.2, Received Suppression   0.75
3 Damage   1.2, Fire-up Cooldown   0.5

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=6216.0

so you're right. 6 is incorrect, it's .8 which is better.

[Wildfire]

Actually a vet 3 axis sniper in this game only gets 25% off cooldown, which is total and utter shit. Unless they changed the value from what the tooltip says.

Read more better.

the axis sniper does get a reduced shot timer at vet 3, i believe 25%

For a long time it's been known that Hans sucks horribly compared to Dave the sniper and, hell, Johnny the AT gun crewman for that matter. People in retail are still having huge conflicts over whether the allied sniper's dodge buff at vet 2 is balanced or not, I doubt we'll come to any conclusion here anytime soon.

Also while we're at it, make KCH actually unsuppressable so the tooltip doesn't lie, please.

what are you talking about? kch at vet 3 can't be suppressed, no matter what. they run through hmgs like they're not there. also people tend to forget thta you can put infantry in cover even yellow cover (vs allied hmg) and green (vs axis hmg) and not get suppressed.

[Malevolence]

Yeah, I've seen it happen too - so has Templar09. I didn't believe him, either. They unsuppress fast, and it takes a lot to do it, but they just put the suppression tables retarded high instead of actually making them take no suppression.

so you're right. 6 is incorrect, it's .8 which is better.

.8 is even worse than 25% less cooldown, which is what the tooltip says. That information is also from August.

[Tymathee]

yeah its from august, thats the last time any of the backend stats have been changed, so it's correct and Lai is someone dependable on what the stats actually are.

So what, .8 is just 20%, just 5% less, ooh...still good whereas the allied sniper gets no cool down decrease and the wehr snipers cool down without vet is still higher than the allied sniper. And then you have modifiers with doctrine abilities and clickable abilities where the cooldown can be decreased or health raised etc that makes it better, whereas the allies get none of that.

Im not saying either one is better but depending on how you use it, it's good. You use allied sniper in back to support your main infantry but if you move it WITH infantry you're screwed. Axis snipers on the other hand, have a higher ROF, more shots per clip, reload faster therefore, they're used to take out the larger allied squads and can take out support weapons a lot faster than the allied one can, even if they dont take out one guy in one shot, axis sniper still gets 3-4 shots off by the time the allied sniper can get 2 and be on way to its 3rd.

[Malevolence]

Yeah, he gets to dodge shots automatically. SO much worse.

[Tymathee]

Yeah, he gets to dodge shots automatically. SO much worse.

never made a comparison one is better than other. read what i said, I edited my post.

You axis players keep trying to say how much better allies are, yet you find ways to win, so i dont know what you're bitching about.

If you've noticed, the axis are the ones making the push lately, not the allies, so where's your point that the allies are better? if anything, they're pretty even it looks like to me, it all depends on play style, skill of player, etc etc.

[Malevolence]

The allied sniper is better because it lives longer to inflict more damage, at least that's the general line of thought.

As for shooting faster, the Allied sniper also has less shooting to do due to smaller squad sizes on the Wehrmacht side (which, incidentally, cannot reinforce thus exacerbating the damage done). Plus, he gets  his most useful veterancy upgrade at vet 2, rather than vet 3.

Neither of them is really overpowered in this mod just because there's so few of them due to their cost, but the allied sniper's veterancy has been better since retail 1.3 I think it was where they changed the doubleshot wehr sniper to a 50% cooldown shot wehr sniper.

[Tymathee]

the allied sniper is better at actually "sniping" than the wehr sniper, which isn't really a sniper, it's more of a support rifle. the g43 sniper is the same gun which the panzer grens get. If relic really wanted to make the Wehr sniper a "sniper" then they'd have used the Kar98k which was a really good sniper rifle but they didn't. The Wehr sniper is really good at picking off support weapons and using with axis infantry, which wear down the allied infantry, thus enabling the wehr sniper to take out soldiers in one hit. The allied sniper isn't used that way. You use the allied sniper to take out infantry from a distance and make them come to you , even though it can be used with infantry, its best used to take pot shots at axis infantry. Plus...what does it matter with smaller squad sizes if you're still getting more shots off. sure the effectiveness goes down faster per squad but you can take out 3 riflemen in the same amount of time you can take down 2 wher and then a gren with 2 men vs 3 riflemen is just as good, if not better since their rifles do more damage and also they have more health.

[Malevolence]

Actually the Wehr sniper would only get an extra shot after every fifth shot in terms of actual kills done (although the speed of all shots would be sped up, the actual usefulness of having an extra shot in the same amount of time would only occur with a "free" sixth shot).

This means that for every rifle squad you kill, you've lost one grenadier squad and a grenadier. Not as good a trade, eh?

[Tymathee]

no, you still dont get it dude. you aren't putting in the fast that the allied sniper still only has 5 shots and also has a longer reload than the axis sniper. Plus, the cool down is still shorter. So the axis sniper is still getting off more short and when he does reload, he reloads faster, so over time, he'll get off maybe 20  shots vs the allies 12, put it at t3 and it's 20 - 10, then th ere's the wind down, which the axis sniper doesn't have, which basically mimics the fact that the allied sniper has to reset the bolt after each shot.

[UnLimiTeD4]

.8 cooldown is still 25% more dps.

Allied snipers are really strong vs. enemy snipers, they tend to dogde everything deadly thrown at them, so paks arent sucha risk (though they are actually more accurate, I think).
With 56% dogde and higher range, he's truely godly at countersniping, while the axis sniper can overall get nearly 40% more shots off on enemy support weapons.
ALso keep in mind axis snipers can get medpacks and combining that with autoheal will result in significantly longer life against enemy Infantry hordes.

[Tymathee]

^ my point exactly. Allied snipers are best to take their shots at important targets,  and axis snipers are really good at moving with axis infantry, although, sniping officers, kch and storms are difficult cuz of their "armor" anywho...there's no which one better, they both ahve their advantages and disadvantages

[Killer344]

nah, you don´t need to worry about fire up with the american sniper, axis snipers hardly live longer than allied snipers.

[Malevolence]

.8 cooldown is still 25% more dps.

Allied snipers are really strong vs. enemy snipers, they tend to dogde everything deadly thrown at them, so paks arent sucha risk (though they are actually more accurate, I think).
With 56% dogde and higher range, he's truely godly at countersniping, while the axis sniper can overall get nearly 40% more shots off on enemy support weapons.
ALso keep in mind axis snipers can get medpacks and combining that with autoheal will result in significantly longer life against enemy Infantry hordes.

DPS doesn't matter with a sniper, it kills on crit. If it didn't riflemen would survive being shot by the wehrmacht sniper. Only on things like heroic armor soldiers, which are still killed on crit, is damage useful to have. You will note the United States does not have any troops with heroic armor.

Enemy infantry hoards should not be shooting your sniper, additionally.

[Unkn0wn]

Enemy infantry hoards should not be shooting your sniper, additionally.

Doesn't mean that you won't take damage occasionally. Be it from a lucky mortar/artillery hit/jeep/etc.

[puddin2]

snipers....

USe them as scouts....

Or

use them as the blunt end of the Hammer. 

Wither way the strongest vet a sniper has is axis vet 1 with health regen.  Plain and simple.  Only thing to compair is Allied triage.  Combine the axis vet 1 with Heavy supprt and 2 medkit uses that are 50% more powerfull, and you have a sniper glory hole. 

I see most people so scared to use snipers that they only get 1 or 5 kills and they consider that a win.... 

For a sniper to be effective in eir, you need abotu 15-20 kills.  If you don;t have that many, might as well lose it. 

[Malevolence]

Alright I did all the math, and it comes out to roughly 30 seconds to fire 5 shots from the Wehr sniper (AT VET 3 MIND YOU) and 45 to do the same from the US sniper. Realistically speaking the clip reload time won't come into play as shooting more than five shots in a row is rare, but if you really wanted to add it the added time would be negligable over the course of a full ten shots.

This means that the US sniper kills a grenadier squad and another quarter of a grenadier squad per clip in 45 seconds, while the Wehrmacht sniper kills (8 rounded up, 7 rounded down... we'll say he's a lucky sniper and has 8 ), or a single rifle squad and a quarter, in the same amount of time.

Unfortunately, the US sniper also happens to get a dodge bonus and several other bonuses by this point that the Wehrmacht sniper has no real comparison for. So a vet 3 wehr sniper gets his auto-heal, and can snipe 1.25 squads, plus his useless vet 2 anti suppression crap, while a US sniper gets an uber dodge bonus in place of the auto-heal* (which honestly I believe is better)... while sniping 1.25 squads. Plus he gets his vet 3 bonuses, which I don't remember. I'm pretty sure it's not the move speed buff like in Retail, but I dunno.

Between two vet 3 snipers, I'll take the allied one any day...

Wither way the strongest vet a sniper has is axis vet 1 with health regen.  Plain and simple.  Only thing to compair is Allied triage.  Combine the axis vet 1 with Heavy supprt and 2 medkit uses that are 50% more powerfull, and you have a sniper glory hole. 

Except then the allies take the triage and the cheaper sniper tier abilities from infantry resulting from the less manpower/less munitions abilities. So now you have additional allied snipers who also can heal against fewer wehrmacht snipers with longer range. Except the allied snipers still have better veterancy. This isn't "Hans vs Theorycrafting".

I see most people so scared to use snipers that they only get 1 or 5 kills and they consider that a win.... 

For a sniper to be effective in eir, you need abotu 15-20 kills.  If you don;t have that many, might as well lose it. 

Depends what it killed. Riflemen? Nope. AT guns? Quite possibly, if there's armor nearby...

*Note, not at vet 1, but it is a comparable ability.