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Author Topic: EIR:R Secrets Revealed - 1: Prestige Point System  (Read 25952 times)
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DefenseDoct Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 3


« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2009, 01:13:35 am »

It sounds like the system has been all but worked out, but an idea that sprang into my head while reading the description. What would be the effect of having Prestige Points be awarded, not in a blanket 5 or 4, but by action on the field. Specifically, I was thinking Victory Points, which were totally dropped for EiR, could be included. It may be completely unnecessary but I think the tactical changes could be interesting. Just off the top of my head, some game play changes would be:
Tactical Decisions, do you defend the point even if it means sacrificing troops across the field
Early Withdrawal, if your enemy holds onto most of the PPs do you stick around or retreat, limiting their gain
Good Players Rewarded, good players who can hold/capture get more points
The main negative I have come up with is that if an attack completely fails they could be left out, but I figure that this could be fixed with basically a 3 point system, one on defense side, one in the middle, and one on the attacking side.
Just a little idea I had, it is undoubtedly too late in development to be implemented in the EiRR first release, but I'm curious to know what others think about it.
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Baine Offline
Steven Spielberg
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Posts: 3713


« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2009, 10:12:57 am »

Can PP cure cancer? If so, wouldn't it be op?


Oh right, we got ontopic again, so: I like the idea of a global system that combines RB, CP and Vet. Sounds interesting and I would like to see it in action.
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MistenTH Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 199


« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2009, 10:45:03 am »

EIR:R Secrets Revealed - 1: Prestige Point System
Prestige points replace both CPs and RBs. The reason behind this change was that CPs and RBs were promoting strong overpowered companies.  This in turn rewarded 'grinders' and penalized casual players.

I don't see a major change from the existing system in this regard. CPs get maxed and then get wasted. RBs get diminishing returned up to a point that the numerical advantage isn't that major, but companies can become maybe 10% huger than your average player over time.

The new system I assume doctrines can be maxed out, so no more PPs will be used there. I similarly assume that company expansion has a dimishing return principle as well, which means that it can still grow similarly to our current diminishing RB system, UNLESS there is a hard cap.

This means that PPs after doctrines are maxed will go towards company expansion and attrition-perks. If a player decides not to go for attrition-perks then they can build a big company even faster than a 'balanced' player because all PP will go there.

The diminishing PP system still seems to reward grinders, just like our current dimishing RB system. And frankly, with ALL persistency games, such as RPGs, grinders WILL be rewarded the more they play because of the nature of such games, unless you hard cap it at the end. E.g. max hero level 100, any other grinding for 'epic' loot give a minscule 5% bonus in some stat. /// max company doctrine size 200 CPs, 'Company Expansion' 150%, then all remainder go into attrition-perks. And that does not seem customisation-geared at all.

If the doctrine/expansion system is so huge that it takes a long time to max every thing out, then once again grinders are rewarded since they get more PP to work towards maxing it out.

Quote
PPs will be gained in a similar way as we now generate CPs and RBs.  However, while CP gain was limited to a certain number a day, PP gain will not be. Instead, PP will have diminishing returns over the course of a week.

The biggest change is that PP spending will be what we call a 'point soak' or a point of attrition. 

The attrition-perks will have to be mighty damn good though. If they are not very strong, then most players will just opt to max doctrines and company sizes (up to whenever it is diminished returned to pointlessly) before spending it on attrition-perks. Seemingly no major change from now, except that you can't spend CPs, but can spend RBs, whereas you can spend all PP if you so choose so.

And since good players will lose their special units less frequently, they of course benefit more. Weaker players will lose their special units more often, making their companies weaker as well. And if special perks are super good, then once again good players will benefit more than weaker players.

---

In summary, I don't see any major difference in the stated aim of the PP system to fix overpowered companies. With the current information given, it looks like it's going to be more of the same. Attrition-perks will likely seem to be something that excess PPs can be spent on once a company is maxed out, which is a nice touch but does not work towards the stated major aim.

In any game, and in real life, the 'grinders' and the 'really good' are always going to have stronger/better/more powerful companies than the 'casual', more so in a persistency game. The only thing you can do is reduce the statistical advantage to less than 10%, which the current system already does.

And frankly, people will tend to stay on longer in a game that they do well in as opposed to one that they suck in. Unless it's really a lot of fun even if you lose. So you will always have a super strong 'hardcore' that new players will always encounter, and only the strongest of the new will be able to stay on.

EiR either needs to have a massive influx of players such that there are ALWAYS going to be all skill levels available for everyone to enjoy in, which seems a remote possibility since gamers are required to have CoH first, else it needs to make losing really really fun as well. Which tends to be really hard in games in which winning is a goal. Especially in a game where vet units / ventrilo screamers are present.

If the current system results in overpowered companies in anyway, then it's more of the doctrine abilities that are available, or of certain units, that makes it so, rather than any major CP/RB/PP system revamp.

Sorry I can't propose a better system, cause I can't think of any. But it'll still be fun :p
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Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
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Posts: 18379


« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2009, 11:01:24 am »

Quite some theorycrafting although you forgot to add veterancy and availability to your analysis. Tongue
(See first post) Then again, you probably need more information on that before jumping to conclusions.
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31stPzGren Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 455


« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2009, 12:12:03 pm »

I don't think thats called "theorycrafting". I think its 'common sense' and 'observation'.

There has been enough people telling you about the pros and cons of this system, especially with MistenTH's mini essay. We'll just wait for EiR:R to be released and see who get to say "I told you so."
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Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
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Posts: 18379


« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2009, 12:17:01 pm »

It is theorycrafting because you have no clue how availability and veterancy work yet Tongue.
And as mentioned in the first post, they're also a very important part of the whole PP system.

You'll see soon, I'm sure! Wink
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 12:27:40 pm by Unkn0wn » Logged
salan Offline
Synergies TL2 mod!
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Posts: 6290


« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2009, 12:32:56 pm »

oi unknown!

Misten, thank you for the extremely well written post!  It is true, that in any game that is not hardcapped at rediculously small amounts that a grinder/addicted player will definitely get some form of leg up on someone who plays casually.  Getting to the end, for that segment of time while the rest level slowly, or getting superbly gigantic while the others attempt the same on a slower scale, is something that every gaming system these days takes into account.


some of your answers will be in the next segments of release, some might not be.  Not everything will be fixed and cure the almighty cancer, but we are making a bee-line to what we believe is the most functional, rewarding, and fair manner to do the best job we can. 

Our goals are simple:  An exciting fun experience that everyone can enjoy.  Everyone includes new players, casual players, and grinding players.  Enjoyment includes first and foremost accessibility, and then game play.

We will attempt to answer all your questions as they become public knowledge.

Thank you Misten.
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NationalSozialismus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 56


« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2009, 01:02:34 pm »

You said to us you must pay for each tiger you get, so his point about it benefitting better players more stands, as I said earlier. It's all what i said previously, essentially the only change is greater opportunity cost, and making all points into a single point system, rather than two.

As you increase variability of the system, opportunities for better players and exploiters increase. You will see this with many games.

Points on units will disadvantage crap players and benefit good players.
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I play Axis and Allies equally.
anthony210 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1016


« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2009, 01:43:34 pm »

The difference between a company that has a Tiger and a company that doesn't is very small.

The Panther tank is a very viable and cheaper alternative to a Tiger, in fact I know some players PREFER using a Panther over a Tiger.

Better players will always have an advantage, even if they don't get shit.  Why? Because they are better than the person they are playing.  It has nothing to do with being able to buy a single unit.
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RikiRude Offline
Donator
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Posts: 4376



« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2009, 01:56:52 pm »

Are you telling me this new system won't fix stupid or bad micro?

You guys aren't trying hard enough!
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Quote from: Killer344
Killer344: "Repent: sory no joke i just had savage diorea"
... or a fat ass cock sucking churchill being stupid
salan Offline
Synergies TL2 mod!
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Posts: 6290


« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2009, 03:56:26 pm »

I'm sorry riki, no one has made a game capable of fixing your lack of skill yet  Grin

more to come soon!
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Prydain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 287


« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2009, 04:01:47 pm »

Add a bribe system where you can pay the devs to give you resource bonuses. If they accept dollars; give them one Euro and it will buy them a car or something while you walk off with five more King Tigers.

I am going to expand on my plan after I get home from the pub.
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The Germans in Greek
Are sadly to seek;
Not five in five score,
But ninety-five more;
All, save only Hermann,
And Hermann's a German.
Baine Offline
Steven Spielberg
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Posts: 3713


« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2009, 04:04:24 pm »

Add a bribe system where you can pay the devs to give you resource bonuses. If they accept dollars; give them one Euro and it will buy them a car or something while you walk off with five more King Tigers.

I am going to expand on my plan after I get home from the pub.

Stop wasting your time on teh internetz when you are in teh pub!
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