Learning from the past: Balancing mistakes - Zeal Lmg

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[DuckOfDoom]

Ok, i know that reinforcements is going to be out soon and that they are going to get rid of this bullshit, but just have a look at how over-powered is this t2 ability:

Zeal increases the combat effectiveness as men die, this passive ability is always turned on once researched as a doctrinal upgrade.

(if you are dumb or lazy just skip to the summary)

Modifiers

    * Less than 4 men (Volksgrenaders and Grenadiers only)
          o Received Damage x 0.95
          o Received Suppression x 0.85
          o Weapon Accuracy x 1.15
          o Maximum Health + 10

    * Less than 3 men
          o Weapon Accuracy x 1.15
          o Received Damage x 0.95
          o Received Suppression x 0.75
          o Health Regeneration + 9.6/min
          o Weapon Cooldown x 0.75

    * Less than 2 men
          o Suppression = 0
          o Received Damage x 0.9
          o Weapon Accuracy x 1.25
          o Received Suppression x 0.75
          o Weapon Cooldown x 0.25
          o Weapon Reload x 0.75

Add in grenadier veterancy:

Vet 1 Regen 0.035
Vet 2 Rec Dmg 0.8, Rec Sup 0.75
Vet 3 Health 1.2, Supp 1.5


Now, look at the relevant stats of an lmg:

Reload    6.5—6    
Cooldown    3.5—3

(damage 5, burst 15)

Accuracy    

L    0.1    (10%)
M    0.3    (30%)
S    0.75  (75%)

Now, lets do some maths!

Grenadier lmgx1 squad, 3 men:

Damage output:

Long range     0.1    (10%) -> 11% of 5x15 => 8.25 volley damage (2-1 second, 3 second delay)
Medium range    0.3    (30%) -> 33% of 5x15=> 24.75 volley damage (2-1 second, 3 second delay)
Short range    0.75  (75%) -> 86.25% 5x15=> 64.67 volley damage (2-1 second, 3 second delay), bonus supression

Average kill time on a full health rifle squad: 4.2 seconds

Health and suppression:

Vet 1 - 240 health, 0.035/s regen, 15% supression immunity, 5% damage resistance
Vet 2 - 240 health, 0.035/s regen, 40% supression immunity, 25% damage resistance
Vet 3 - 268 health, 40% supression immunity,  25% damage resistance


Grenadier lmgx1 squad, 2 men:

Damage output:

Long range     0.1    (10%) -> 11% of 5x15 => 8.25 volley damage (2-1 second, 2 second delay)
Medium range    0.3    (30%) -> 33% of 5x15=> 24.75 volley damage (2-1 second, 2 second delay)
Short range    0.75  (75%) -> 86.25% 5x15=> 64.67 volley damage (2-1 second, 2 second delay), bonus supression

Average kill time on a full health rifle squad: 3.5 seconds

Health and suppression:

Vet 1 - 160 health, 9.635/s regen (1/4 perma medikit), 25% supression immunity, 5% damage resistance
Vet 2 - 160 health, 9.635/s regen (1/4 perma medikit), 50% supression immunity, 25% damage resistance
Vet 3 - 188 health ,  9.635/s regen (1/4 perma medikit), 50% supression immunity,  25% damage resistance

Grenadier lmgx1 squad, 1 man: (this is where it gets seriously broken)

Damage output:

Long range     0.1    (10%) -> 12.5% of 5x15 => 9.3 (equivalent to browning automatic rifle fire at medium range), 2-1 second burst with 0.75 second delay
Medium range    0.3    (30%) -> 37.5%  of 5x15 => 28.125,  2-1 second burst with 0.75 second delay
Short range    0.75  (75%) -> 93.75% of 5x15 => 70.31, 2-1 second burst  with 0.75 second delay

Average kill time on a full health rifle squad: 3.0 seconds

Health and suppression:

Vet 1 - 80 health, 9.635/s regen (1/4 perma medikit), unsupressable, 10% damage resistance
Vet 2 - 80 health, 9.635/s regen (1/4 perma medikit), unsupressable, 35% damage resistance
Vet 3 - 108 health,  9.635/s regen (1/4 perma medikit), unsupressable, 35% damage resistance

Summary:

Not counting suppression, this t2 offers a nearly 45% (rough) boost to damage, assuming maximum possible causalities. As a result, a lmg grenadier squad actually becomes more useful and far more dangerous in low numbers, while becoming ONE AND A HALF times as powerful as a full grenadier squad! For comparecent, here are the allied t4s comparecent damage wise:

Next Generation vehicles:

Offers a rough 32% damage boost due to increased penetration (20%) and reload (25%).

Raid assault:

Offers a 50% damage boost for 100 seconds.

Why is an axis t2 superior to an allied vehicle t4 and nearly as a good as an airborne t4? We will never know.

Some of you might point out that its only a 1 cp ability in vcoh, so it cant be this bad. The answer is, yes it can. In vcoh, this ability is designed to give a wermacht player and early advantage against rifles and tommies. In vCoh, lmgs are not a common sight due to their high price, late game availability and the ability to retreat back to the base. In eir however, the lmg is a main infantry weapon, just like a bar on the American side, so the effect of Zeal is actually spread out over the entire axis army, permanently, buffing the army for the ENTIRE duration of the battle.

Basicaly, this combines the deadliness of raid assault with the longevity of next generation vehicles. This has the following effect on the game flow:

- Main axis infantry becomes uncounterable by allied infantry, including specialists (bar the sniper). This leads to the allied players relying on specialized armor to defeat the main infantry force of the axis Terror company, which means that the axis will automatically have the attrition advantage.

- Lmg grenadiers require MINIMUM  micromanagement since they must be stationary to fire their lmgs.

I fail to see how that is even remotely fair, that the axis enjoy an advantage of a equivalent-uncounterable (ie infantry that cannot be countered by any other infantry) unit which doesn't require micromanagement.In another comparecent, Panthers, Tigers and King Tigers can be destroyed by allied armor with luck and good micro, while in this case the allied infantry has literally no chance in hell bar a massive user error on the axis side.

Possible solutions:

- Zeal should be a t4 due to eirs playstile
- Remove the zeals effect on lmgs and apply it only to standard squad weapons
- Increase the setup time of the lmg and the cooldown between shots
- Remove the cooldown and reload bonuses zeal provides

[4thRangerDivision]

Hah

ZEAL is an awsome thing what Terror should have. Have you seen how quickly LMGs even with Zeal gets raped? I bet ya haven't.
I know how powerful Zeal is but I don't ask for a nerf for it and hope EiR:R won't get rid of it. Its a Tier 2 which leaves one Tier 2 out from being picked.
I know it effects the combat effectiveness but do you know how easy it is to snipe that one guy with that LMG? Don't charge him up with infantry since that one guy will fanatically even stop 2 infantry squads from closing him. Tank will snipe him rather quickly.

I play as allies and I have no problem playing vs Zeal infantry. They die as easily as any other soldier in Company of Heroes.

[Malevolence]

Some of you might point out that its only a 1 cp ability in vcoh, so it cant be this bad. The answer is, yes it can. In vcoh, this ability is designed to give a wermacht player and early advantage against rifles and tommies. In vCoh, lmgs are not a common sight due to their high price, late game availability and the ability to retreat back to the base. In eir however, the lmg is a main infantry weapon, just like a bar on the American side, so the effect of Zeal is actually spread out over the entire axis army, permanently, buffing the army for the ENTIRE duration of the battle.

Actually it's because you have better things to spend your munitions on. You know, things that actually don't suck, like stukas and offmap artillery.


But with thousands of munitions available, and very few of those spent on the traditional upgrades, an LMG is a "well, I might as well..." kind of upgrade.

[1ClassKnightsCross]

lol the second biased allied fanboy beside crazytymm

zeal a t4 ability (says a vet3 airborne spamer) you made my day XD

[4thRangerDivision]

lol the second biased allied fanboy beside crazytymm

zeal a t4 ability (says a vet3 airborne spamer) you made my day XD

and I lol'd

Agreement on those two posts posted above <3

[Duckordie]

lol DuckOfDoom
Nice Tabbel. I agree with its a powerfull T2, Like MI
The cost for Zeal sould go up and/or go T3

But T4, LAMO

[Tymathee]

For one asshat im not an allied fan boy, just an allied player who's seen 3-4 wars where the axis have raped and have LOTS more experience than you in the eir environment so stfu 4th rangers, every argument I have, I back up with stats and relevant game-play experience. Just because you're a dumb-ass and choose to ignore iet, doesn't mean that Im wrong. Yes there are things on the allied side that are really powerful and you see a lot of allied player with them but u know what? its cuz we have to because the allies have a lot of disadvantages vs the axis, especially as they vet up.

and i have to agree, Zeal is incredibly powerful for a t2, it's more powerful than a lot of t3 and t4 abilities. Im not saying it's beat all but it should've been at least a t3 ability maybe not t4 but still, its insane how many times I've watched my full health rifle squad die to a gren lmg squad with only 2 guys in it.

Well, good thing is, we might not have to worry about this as much anymore. I wonder if they'll keep it since it was part of the original vcoh.

[Baine]

Get a sniper and kill that one man motherfu**er!

[Killer344]

zeal < raid assault.... yeah sure lol.

[Fingertrapped]

You are taking a chance with the squad and its possible veterancy by using these 1 man squads, duck. Its an advantage with a clear downside as well. If there is a sniper or a sherman around, that last guy could just die randomly.

[Draken]

Zeal should be t3 why much weaker scopes then t2 are t3? It's got weakpoint, when u got fresh company u can risk your troops but with vet 2 vet 3 u wont leave 1 man squads on the field, but still compared to other t2s it's to powerfull.

[Thtb]

Learning from the past: Balancing mistakes - Ucross

[DuckOfDoom]

lol the second biased allied fanboy beside crazytymm

zeal a t4 ability (says a vet3 airborne spamer) you made my day XD

Good job backing your argument with facts and numbers, instead of just saying "lol u are gay". Maybe instead of being a faggot you can enlighten us as to how you can "spam" your doctrinal unit, around which your entire doctrine is built? Airborne done exactly get a lot of valid choices when it comes to infantry. Yes, I can get 210mp rifles that will sit in my company taking up pop cap, since no bonuses that I get apply to them and they will die in 3 seconds flat to anything. Airborne companies ARE meant to be full of airborne, ask anyone, unknown or leaph if you dont believe me.

zeal < raid assault.... yeah sure lol.

Zeal is better because it gives a very solid  PERMANENT all-around buff coupled with insane health regen.

What I said earlier about it being a t4 is probably too harsh, but it definitely shouldnt be a t2 for 6 cps (pps in the future?). Military Intelligence has 2 uses, and while its powerful it has the potential to reveal 2 call ins, which is NOT overpowered (its powerful when used with other abilities, ie rocket arty). Zeal has no use limits, its always there. By that logic, i should have permanent raid assault on my airborne.

You are taking a chance with the squad and its possible veterancy by using these 1 man squads, duck. Its an advantage with a clear downside as well. If there is a sniper or a sherman around, that last guy could just die randomly.

You are right about the sniper, but a sherman is not necessarily a death sentence, since its not that accurate. In my experience of using undergunned shermans vs 1 man squads, its about 30% of the time that the squad gets killed. Also, with that health regen and damage resistance a sherman shell leaves the 1 man gren squad with 1% health rather then killing them.

[1ClassKnightsCross]

lol the second biased allied fanboy beside crazytymm

zeal a t4 ability (says a vet3 airborne spamer) you made my day XD

Good job backing your argument with facts and numbers, instead of just saying "lol u are gay". Maybe instead of being a faggot you can enlighten us as to how you can "spam" your doctrinal unit, around which your entire doctrine is built? Airborne done exactly get a lot of valid choices when it comes to infantry. Yes, I can get 210mp rifles that will sit in my company taking up pop cap, since no bonuses that I get apply to them and they will die in 3 seconds flat to anything. Airborne companies ARE meant to be full of airborne, ask anyone, unknown or leaph if you dont believe me.

you are like the noobs blobbing riflemen and running straight into a MG..zOMG mg42 overpowered
no need for additional arguments, everyone who knows your company know why you are crying about zeal lmg grens

zeal < raid assault.... yeah sure lol.

Zeal is better because it gives a very solid  PERMANENT all-around buff coupled with insane health regen.

i don't know where a 1 men lgm zeal gren that is dead in no time is better then a 4 men lmg gren squad or even against a 100%++ raidborne (50% less taken damage taken +50% damage output + high dodging rate while retreating)

[DuckOfDoom]

you are like the noobs blobbing riflemen and running straight into a MG..zOMG mg42 overpowered
no need for additional arguments, everyone who knows your company know why you are crying about zeal lmg grens

You are truly retarded. An hmg CAN be flanked, Lmgs CANNOT be flanked. Zeal makes an lmg squad BETTER then an mg42 hmg squad (check the vcoh stats yourself), combined with Intensity. That squad has no weapon deployment time and virtually 0 reload and cooldown time at size 2 and 3. Even the hmg has to reload from time to time. Not to mention that lmg grens cost LESS then an hmg.

i don't know where a 1 men lgm zeal gren that is dead in no time is better then a 4 men lmg gren squad or even against a 100%++ raidborne (50% less taken damage taken +50% damage output + high dodging rate while retreating)

If you cant read the OP dont bother posting. You are clearly too fucking dumb to even look at the numbers someone else has done for you, so get fucked.

1 man zeal lmg gren will beat a 100% Raid Assault airborne squad if it cant fire up due to suppression, a 1 man lmg squad is easier to leave in cover or a building, and a 1 man squad does not get flanking penalties like a full squad. Also, you are immune to suppression due to Zeal. The only reasonable counter is a sniper, or a lucky armor shot.

You still havent provided a single shred of evidence to support that Zeal is not game-breaking overpowered, you have done nothing but attack the structure of my company and the high level of my unit veterancy.

Stop posting, you are a pathetic power gaming noob who is trying to defend his precious overpowered ability so he can have a dickwaving competition in videogame by the means of abusing it.

[UnLimiTeD2]

Stop all that bitching already.It's hardly funny anymore.
We all know (if we accept the facts) that Zeal is powerful and deserves a T3.
(btw, not as powerful as an lmgsquad supervised by an officer. ever though about combining those 2? )
Zeal has reasonable risks, foremost the risk of dieing, and the poor devs will sacrifice time to balance this aswell.
What is wrong with you, seriously.

[MistenTHA]

A company built around zeal means that you won't care about the vet loss, and frankly it won't matter since your troops will be killing machines.

It's pretty scary to see 2 raid assault airborne squads drop next to a 1-man zeal LMG squad in a house and all of them die 5 seconds after landing.

[1ClassKnightsCross]

you are like the noobs blobbing riflemen and running straight into a MG..zOMG mg42 overpowered
no need for additional arguments, everyone who knows your company know why you are crying about zeal lmg grens

You are truly retarded. An hmg CAN be flanked, Lmgs CANNOT be flanked.

ok you pro player then tell me how to flank a 360 degree suppression bar? oh i forgot you are a airborne blobber without any other infantry

1 man zeal lmg gren will beat a 100% Raid Assault airborne squad

funny how you cry about some kind of a hardcounter to your brainless airborne blob spam
it is not only zeal that get you freak out it is company that are set up by many lmg squads to counter your airborne spam

Stop posting, you are a pathetic power gaming noob who is trying to defend his precious overpowered ability so he can have a dickwaving competition in videogame by the means of abusing it.

lol people with a company that contains only 3 type of units (airbornes+shermans+crocs) crying about some counters to their brainless spam make me smile

[DuckOfDoom]

angry words

*parks zeal lmg grens in green cover*

*puts on shades*

True skill

(oh and I have shermans too, so thats 4 types of units)

Stop all that bitching already.It's hardly funny anymore.
We all know (if we accept the facts) that Zeal is powerful and deserves a T3.
(btw, not as powerful as an lmgsquad supervised by an officer. ever though about combining those 2? )
Zeal has reasonable risks, foremost the risk of dieing, and the poor devs will sacrifice time to balance this aswell.
What is wrong with you, seriously.

You are probably right, arguing this further is pointless, especially when faced with idiots like the 1stclassknightscross.

[NationalSozialismus]

A company built around zeal means that you won't care about the vet loss, and frankly it won't matter since your troops will be killing machines.

It's pretty scary to see 2 raid assault airborne squads drop next to a 1-man zeal LMG squad in a house and all of them die 5 seconds after landing.

QTF

Above, ZEAL comes with risks to veterancy, you will have noticed that ZEAL based armies often won't have much veterancy.
The last guy still dies relatively easily, if he's in a building a single grenade finishes him off, anihilating that squad and any potential veterancy.
All allied builds are able to defeat the zeal companies, only ones that have massive problems versus zeal companies are AB spammers. Pure infantry armies with little of anything else tend to falter.

FYI I've seen AB who don't use all AB, but use them as elite soldiers instead of mainline infantry. You using only AB is like infantry spamming Rangers but wanting the versatility of a normal army. You want the versatility, then get a more balanced and diverse army, otherwise enjoy being raped by zeal.